http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#66d9bb70-9202-49c1-a222-76d8859d8003 In all seriousness, let's really do that. Turns out I'm a modest but insanely good percussionist and musician, as well. Sat, 05 Aug 2006 07:15:05 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#66d9bb70-9202-49c1-a222-76d8859d8003 Lokifreign 2006-08-05T07:15:05Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3d30eb24-c89c-44ce-ba55-d31dbd4dd7fe hahaha..being your cousin may not be all that far fetched, considering that I too, am a southern girl - born in Houston Texas, my Daddy's from Lousiana. Didn't stay around those parts too long though. As for the three thousand dollars, that's about how much it would cost you and your family to come for a lil visit here in "Super Natural" but overpriced Vancouver...hehe. And we don't have nearly as fun up here as it appears you guys are having down there. Oh, but I have a cool idea a-brewin. How bout we organize a workshop and show here featuring Sarai? Sat, 05 Aug 2006 06:51:41 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3d30eb24-c89c-44ce-ba55-d31dbd4dd7fe $item.owner.firstName 2006-08-05T06:51:41Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#74b4d90a-7f7f-42f6-90be-74b2e1f597d1 Turns out we're all related, Sarita is our cousin, and we can go live with her now. PLUS: I found three thousand dollars under my pillow! Sat, 05 Aug 2006 04:56:22 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#74b4d90a-7f7f-42f6-90be-74b2e1f597d1 Lokifreign 2006-08-05T04:56:22Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#60f94f1c-b5a3-4a62-a496-a67a02e83f75 so do we sometimes. Sat, 05 Aug 2006 01:24:34 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#60f94f1c-b5a3-4a62-a496-a67a02e83f75 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2006-08-05T01:24:34Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#0078dcf2-6a0d-41a6-846d-e0044c933f20 DaYAM brothah..!!!! You've got my full attention..so preach OOON. Based on everything I've read on here so far,...I now want to meet you and your beautiful Sarai someday. I think you guys may be from the same species as 'me and mine'. Thanks for giving me back my will to be inspired again. Wish you guys were here in Vancouver. Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:04:29 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#0078dcf2-6a0d-41a6-846d-e0044c933f20 $item.owner.firstName 2006-08-04T22:04:29Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#68a28ca3-c4a5-47c2-995d-f4eb7e120ce5 I ya phuq'n I doen't know what you U R talking abowt . . . so sew give me a kall 404 .797.716 FUCK'N six Sun, 24 Jul 2005 04:31:49 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#68a28ca3-c4a5-47c2-995d-f4eb7e120ce5 Με||όώ 2005-07-24T04:31:49Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#5c2115e4-b767-4bc3-a429-761496a2a938 I think you need to review what's said herein and what your responses have been - if you're unwilling to read the thread, please try not to assume / project its content. Tue, 19 Jul 2005 05:21:08 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#5c2115e4-b767-4bc3-a429-761496a2a938 Lokifreign 2005-07-19T05:21:08Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#f8a73f10-f11f-4976-a84b-e70b6486a2af "Specifically, Zi'ah: Sarai requires her students to see at least one of your shows a year, and advertises the for you free of charge on her lists / correspondences. So don't fuck around and talk bad about Sarai just because Loki said something that miffed you." Oh don't worry, I know that even though she is soft spoken that she has a strong will of her own not to be swayed even by her devoted husband (she is the willow bending to you blowing hard). She is still one of my favorite students to watch because she is dancing her love of this artform. "If some of you that responded later in the discussion might have taken the time to actually read through the discussion carefully, you'd have seen that Oracle and Isa provided me with the information I asked about, which I thanked them for, and everything went along more or less OK from there." I still want to know what specific things made you state that you hated Tribal, feel free to respond to me privately. A bit about me....I work well with concrete facts. I have never been around a group of people that did not have catty and vain aspects to it...I feel like all of life is just one high school experience after another. Right now I am in the geeky theater click but not quite cool enough to be in the "do the performance art after school" click, or the cheerleader or drill team click. Another point..have I read all of this thread? hell no! do I plan on it? hell no...not with shows to plan, workshops to teach, a dance company to run and a beautiful family to nourish and spend time with. Not sure why you think some people sacrifice less than you and that makes them less of an artist... it takes me about a day to compose a post like this between cooking, nursing, rocking, dancing, playing, making business calls, teaching, practicing, answering emails...my enitre life is bellydance and family but I don't consider it a sacrifice...I call it my blissful prison. Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:21:51 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#f8a73f10-f11f-4976-a84b-e70b6486a2af Ziah 2005-07-18T20:21:51Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#1cd6410e-8d26-4b86-9fb3-8ba561765bc5 "...sporting a huge multicolored penis..." *dies laughing* Mon, 18 Jul 2005 04:39:23 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#1cd6410e-8d26-4b86-9fb3-8ba561765bc5 Kat 2005-07-18T04:39:23Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#9cfb656c-21c6-43d3-b32d-9cb6a6340b7c Threading on this thing is a little boggling, so I'm posting this first, and should the spirit move me, I'll go back and reply to salient points on a post-by-post basis. First off, if one were to remove the personal invective from this thread, wouldn't be a great one? Dancers could link to it for a great polemic examination of the state of dance today - if not for the "mooby mooby neh neh, it's all about me" stuff. I acknowledge and accept my role in this - I regret that people felt *personally* attacked by me. HOWEVER: *I* love the thread, still. It has certain points at which total irony is achieved - no mean feat! I'm a bad man (you'd have caught my cheerful acknowledgement of that factoid if you'd READ it, some of you. I can see how, though, reading being the huge difficulty it is, one might just want to skim one paragraph and get pissed off by it for fun), a mean man, a blowhard. Recent occurrences in meatworld have underscored how my tendency to extreme language can cause unintended discomfort for people around me. If Suhaila wants a rumble, I'll give her one - as far as I'm aware on third reading, she's the only person I indicted or attacked on this thread. She's the only person who gets to say "It's about me" ~ all other such protestation is merely a corroboration of my analysis that, for some reason, there's a major crop of vanity going on in the Atlanta dance scene. I'll stop attacking it when it's dead. If some of you that responded later in the discussion might have taken the time to actually read through the discussion carefully, you'd have seen that Oracle and Isa provided me with the information I asked about, which I thanked them for, and everything went along more or less OK from there. Since it might not be totally clear, I'd like to make this one preliminarily beginning-of-the-final-point point: • The opinions of Loki Freign are his own cross to bear, and do not reflect the views of Xehm, Terra, nor anyone else. Please: do not equate things Loki Freign yammers on about on the internet with anything anyone else might say or think, or vice-versa. Mainly, I'm worried that some of you might commute dislike for me to dislike for my wife, which would be wrong and tragic. Specifically, Zi'ah: Sarai requires her students to see at least one of your shows a year, and advertises the for you free of charge on her lists / correspondences. So don't fuck around and talk bad about Sarai just because Loki said something that miffed you. As others have noted - she's a to-the-core sweet and angelic person who has absolutely no representation on this thread. At home I see about 10 belly/dance related docos, instructionals, and movies a week; she isn't saddled with the extreme and rancorous opinions of her husband, see. Allright; that's last-point point 2, I guess: Don't hate on others because of things *I* say. Cool. For my part I promise/warn that, should one choose to attend things I post to the internet, there is *sure* to be a *ton* more offense to be taken. I am *intensely* opinionated, uninhibited and extreme in my tone, unrelenting in my stance, and entirely certain of myself. I am all the things I've accused myself of herein, many of the things others here have accused me of, and more besides!: I'm good and kind, ethical and devoted to humanity, 100% artist, classically trained in music, naturally graceful, tall, sporting a huge multicolored penis, and a thermonuclear source of esprit de corps. I'm also one other subtle thing: I am *very* often right, *especially* about art, history, psychology, science, logistics, and drama. Deal with that! If you're going to impugn my intellectualism, you have to provide some of your own - you don't get a free pass just 'cause you're pissed off and fling the term "pseudo-intellectual". You may not like my tone, but the posts here have done nothing but strengthen some of my essential arguments: self-obsession, unwillingness to sacrifice, divisiveness, conceit. Since I made only one direct personal accusation/indictment, the responses that chimed in after it seemed the discussion had reached its conclusion become very interesting tit-bits of evidence toward that characterization. I'm sorry if that pisses some of you off - but "self knowledge is usually bad news", y'know. (btw - I do an impression of ol' Ibrahim Farrar that'll have you in stitches.) This forum is primarily dedicated to the support and advertisement of unusual / non-corporate / socially radical events and art, and I hope folks who are committed to that end will stay and participate in lively discussions like this one that contribute to a broader understanding of what Atlanta could have going for it and what factors limit its success. If someone else's opinion is going to piss you off to the point of personally attacking another respondent, well, I won't boot you, but I'll definitely make a target of you and start heaping out the ridicule. That's how we roll. The grown-up world is scary that way: you have to back up your lip on Atlanta After Dark. Sun, 17 Jul 2005 21:35:43 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#9cfb656c-21c6-43d3-b32d-9cb6a6340b7c Lokifreign 2005-07-17T21:35:43Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#d518d4c3-cec2-4b94-8c81-d7ddd02b4c4e Oy. Why is it that everyone defending the dance except for Oracle is doing a piss poor job of it? I was highly impressed with Oracle's informative answer and her obvious love of the dance. I even must give a nod to Isa'a attempt to explain, even though it showed nowhere near the depth that Oracle's reply had. Aside from these two, however, not a singl person defending the dance has answered any of the questions Loki posed. They are, in fact, doing EXACTLY what they are accsing him of, being extremely vague in their defense, posing no real counterpoints in return, and basically sound like they're saying "you should like the dance because I do, so there!" And Ziah, I thought you left in a huff. My apologies, and no reflection on you as a dancer, only as a debater, but I'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously. In your only other post not only had you NOT read the thread, but you left in a huff and took several things as a personal assault, even when they very obviously werent. I'm sorry, but I dont trust your responses if you dont even know what you're responding TOO. Maybe you should have a one on one conversation with Loki instead? At least then there would be no misunderstandings. Mike you said, stop the intelletual pseudo-babble and talk directly TO your retractors, you might then get farther. Fri, 15 Jul 2005 04:37:18 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#d518d4c3-cec2-4b94-8c81-d7ddd02b4c4e Kat 2005-07-15T04:37:18Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#559dba80-1c87-4e85-afaf-bb4c3010db51 I don't purport to be any expert by any means but was pleased-as-punch at the "Tribal Belly Dance" by Banat Zi'ah and Awalim that I witnessed this past Monday night at Nicola's Restaurant. Now it might be that because I'm not professing to be an expert that my opinion doesn't matter and that I'm guilty of perpetuating the "suburbanyte" myth (to mis-quote Loki) that what they're doing is beautiful and artistic. If so, paint me guilty my friend. Could it be that these so-called suburbanites are guilty of <gasp> exploring art/dance for art's sake without adopting an artist's lifestyle? If they lived in a loft in L5P and worked as a barista would their art be more acceptable? I don't know you but your post leaves me thinking that you're remarkably narrow-minded and elitist. ps. although the program from the show I saw says "Tribal Belly Dance", they DID play the zils - and beautifully so. Kudos! ---------- For my part, I've discovered that I *hate* "tribal". It seems to me to be THE catch-all excuse for suburbanytes to adopt imaginary "exotique", dress up like a pretty pretty princess and jump around while artlessly waving their hands. Argh! "Tribal" seems to really mean "I am afraid of difficult techniques, and wish to avoid learning to play the zils". Please. Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:12:47 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#559dba80-1c87-4e85-afaf-bb4c3010db51 Drew 2005-07-14T19:12:47Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#d1e7cca0-437a-4539-a7ed-68c110134444 I concede that some of my replies to of X's posts may have sounded a bit personally engaging. Such was not my intent, I allowed myself to stop bieng objective and was just being defensive and I apologize. Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:51:13 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#d1e7cca0-437a-4539-a7ed-68c110134444 Mr Oracle 2005-07-14T17:51:13Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#69f34d21-d957-4e37-a3b7-380268902ebf Terra, that was very respectable and well thought out, I commend you. However I stand by my opinions, and ideas about the nature of art. I personally find it folly to believe that humanity is the master of art rather than the other way around, art works through us not for us. Reading up on the history of savants may put my opinion on this matter into perspective and help you to understand my point. To be a great artist one must immerse themselves in it, but not necessarily the entirety of it, nor as I have been trying to state, should we be a bound to and by the foundations of it. This absolute reliance on learning and tradition as being the sole foundation of creation totally ignores the concept of natural talent. I know at least a few people, who are better artists that I, who have never had a bit of training. However I know a huge amount of people that went ahead and studied extensively and never really went beyond a certain point or grew as artists. I will concede that there are people out there that have no business being artists, but then again there are people who have no business being doctors, engineers, or professors. A persons learning is not the sole resource of their expression and ability, nor is it a measure of their worth regardless of their overall knowledge. Davinci’s father recognized at an early age that his son was talented (meaning the foundation was there before) and sent him to school in Florence. Had his father never recognized, accepted and/or encouraged his son’s talents then the world may never have known his genius. One only has to look at the full body of his work as it contains many things that were not taught. This whole argument can be summed up by the age old adage “Which came first the chicken or the egg?”. The easiest thing in the world to be is a critic. I’m not saying a person can’t have standards, but they need to accept that theirs are going to be different than others, and refrain from being nasty in a blanket fashion as they just come off sounding pretentious. If I think someone’s stuff is crap I will either keep my mouth shut and move along, or I will direct my comments directly to that person. I don’t just get out and say things like, “Performance artists are just bad actors who were lazy and couldn’t bring themselves to make a real connection with a diverse audience.” What does that possibly accomplish but to inflame and alienate other artists, some of whom are likely to be truly great performance artists. I face the same problem every day in that many have a predisposition that CG is not truly art because it’s not hands on so to speak and they think it’s easier. The process of creation is the same though slightly different for everyone, the destination shouldn’t matter as much if not more than the journey. The vast majority of my work, few have seen as it really has no marketable value in my opinion. However, I could be wrong but that is irrelevant, it was not created with that being the intent. I have been drawing all my life and have never been concerned about how it was perceived, it is just something I do for me, because I can and because I want to and there is no argument or insult in the world that will change that. I applaud a person who has the fortitude to practice their art, no matter what the medium, in this day an age where cynicism is king. If you chose to honor a specific method of thought and teaching that is your prerogative and again I applaud you. However, allowing personal struggles, feelings of insecurity, and/or outright spite to be projected on those that don’t do it your way is hurtful and unjustifiable by any means. I also believe it important to interject that I have never made this personal I never attacked any person, at least not in regards to something as personal as their art. I attacked an idea, an idea I believe to be flawed. The one personal reference I made was to Loki for the preaching, which he states himself to be the case in his own posts. I saw the man perform and I enjoyed the performance but was it the greatest thing I ever saw, honestly no, but I respect him for doing it and the process that it took to get there and I would go again in a heartbeat. There is nothing personal in my posts and I’m sorry if you take it that way, I was trying to speak abstractly about a perception of what exactly art is and what it means to me. Keeping a “traditional” art form alive is a noble cause and I appreciate that there are people out there who do it because someone should, but it does not make them “better” than anyone else out there that struggles to create. As we move more toward the melding of humanity as one people, one culture we adapt to the change by exposure to new and different ideas and respecting the validity of them. Everyone, and their opinions, can peacefully coexist as long as we give them the respect they deserve and the ability to express themselves however they see fit. I fail to see how this can be construed as a negative idea. Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:12:16 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#69f34d21-d957-4e37-a3b7-380268902ebf Mr Oracle 2005-07-14T17:12:16Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#e54a4829-b364-433d-84e6-6571fb3fde0c We have greatly diverged from the start of this thread...it started with Loki saying "I hate Tribal" and but never stating exactly who he saw dance or what show he saw (i.e. no facts) therefore it is just a rant with no arguable points. Loki also writes: ""Tribal" seems to really mean "I am afraid of difficult techniques, and wish to avoid learning to play the zils"." Have you seen Rachel Brice, Jill Parker or Heather Stants? All of these dancer's bodies of work refute that statement beyond measure. Oh Loki how you personally would love Jill's "Medusa and the Machine" Zar if you could just see it (it will be coming out as a film soon). Then he stated that he hates the Salimpours and that Suhaila just stands and wiggles. He probably saw the Belly Dance Super Stars DVD in which her performance was lacking something BUT it sort of proves everyone's point also....her classes are hard, her technique is impeccable...your body will hurt so bad/good after one morning of workshop that you don't want to take lunch because you will cool down and have to start the process all over again...it is enlightening. SO if she has been bellydancing for her entire life and been classically trained in many dance forms and chooses to go on the "sway her arms around and shimmy" path shouldn't that be her choice as an artist? Loki, instead of griping about how people don't know who Serena Wilson why don't you write a short history for them...and what Ibrahim "Bobby" Farrar, Dahlena and Anahid Sofian? all very instumental in early American bellydance. Why stop at American bellydance, what about Egyptian? Badia Masbni, Naima Akef, Mahamoud Reda? Stop the pseudo-intellectual babble and actually talk to the people that are doing the art....they are all here on Tribe and would love to answer any questions you have. Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:53:18 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#e54a4829-b364-433d-84e6-6571fb3fde0c Ziah 2005-07-14T13:53:18Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#417f4397-99b1-4874-aac0-83343c1ba1e3 Actually no, your arguments are pretty weak and your points meander, and time and again you actually prove HIS point. You cite how new and wonderful things come from people who bucked the mainstream, but every example you cite is a person who first not just learned the mainstream, but IMMERSED themselves in it. Da Vinci is one, Picasso another, to pull th anmes you've been throwing around. In their RESPECT for Art, they first learned its history, its tradition, and its foundation. This has also been the crux of both Loki's and X's arguments, that this is a NECESSARY step for growth. Just like if a toddler skips the crawling stage, it can do irrepairable damage, so can skipping the steps in learning any new skill, Art included. All the creativity in the world is just bupkis and bullshit unless you have the learned skills to take that creativity out from inside you and make it into something of beauty. You are mistaking a thought form for a finished product. Also, despite what the PC bullshitters tell us, it is not bigoted to have STANDARDS, and a little intolerance isnt only to be expected, but if you dont have it, its very, very unhealthy. They are discovering now that the kids who have grown up in an atmosphere of acceptance and non-competition are not only NOT the better for their coddling, but in many cases are worse, much more emotionally immature and much less able to handle life overall. The atmosphere of total permisiveness and acceptance that you kep pushing is not only unhealthy, but can be actively DAMAGING. Expectations give you standards to live up to that are not your own, that force you to stretch yourself out in directions you might not normally explore. Criticism gives you feedback, a way to re-evaluate and see things through the eyes of others. It also forces you to think, to explore where you agree with your cirtics and where you think their cricism is through issues of their own. It forces flexibility, self definition, and even in some cases self esteem. Tradition gives you structure, it is the building blocks on which the future grows. Its the amassed knowledge of the ages, the skills of all the masters to come before you, the body of work that enriches lives and souls. It is the roots of a tree, a place of rich nourishment from which to grow. I could go on. We need all these things to become the best artists we can be, and without the negative, we'd have nothing to overcome, and very little to express. And its just flat disrespectful to turn your nose up at the knowledge and tribulations of every previous generation simply because you think you have a better idea. Just my opinion. Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:20:07 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#417f4397-99b1-4874-aac0-83343c1ba1e3 Kat 2005-07-14T04:20:07Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#acf0afba-fcb5-4c9f-94e2-9f5dbc2c16af “My entire argument” is the fact that traditional or non-traditional, any and all artistic expression is valid and lends itself to the advancement of all art. This pervasive attitude of bigotry of artists against artists is counterproductive to any kind of progress. I understand and respect the necessity of hard work and it’s place in the order of things. However you do not refute my examples but rather shore up my points since it was the step from the traditional to non-traditional in each case that created and defined new art forms, and the artists that followed where they tread were no different than those who are taking an concept and making it their own today. Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:42:20 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#acf0afba-fcb5-4c9f-94e2-9f5dbc2c16af Mr Oracle 2005-07-13T19:42:20Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#52a68de7-f0f9-4bd1-b6aa-d6a217c2b565 "- Essentially the ignorance and audacity of small-minded people to accept any idea or expression save their own as valid. A collection of flawed half formed ideas and expectations that show a refusal of flexibility and acceptance to allow artist of all levels to express themselves as is their own hearts desire. Thank you for proving my point." your entire argument seems to center around the supposition that Creative advances in Artistic expression spring from Non-Tradtional practices. That pioneers just appear throughout human history and remake the wheel every now and again. But I refute all your examples. Where is the basis for this beleif? Certainly some examples exist, and yes, extraordinary individuals do occasionally arise. But almost all progress is made through hard work and learning... not spontaneous generation. Your arguments are weak my friend, and the only way you have to combat that is to call me closed minded? Re-read this entire thread. really read it. then I'll continue this conversation with you. just because you havn't made a convincing argument that sways my opinion doesn't make me close-minded. Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:11:38 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#52a68de7-f0f9-4bd1-b6aa-d6a217c2b565 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-13T19:11:38Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#1de40db6-7cd1-4a6f-8e0a-c7b7f8443fb6 “Look, you're going to have to get comfotable with the FACT that Loki's exposure to art, and Bellydance in particular, is NOT limited. Obviously you don't know him, so stop jumping to conclusions about him.” (Loki) “…Forgive me if you identify as 'tribal' but actually worked to get some skills, and please note that *I have never seen you perform* if this is the case. "Tribal"…” - Unless you have seen it all your exposure is limited. as far as who taught Cave Artists? I'm guessing the cave artist who came before them? - LOL Do I really need to dignify this with a response? “Most Anthropologists follow a theory that the act of doing that art was a form of magic; giving primitive man power over his future kills on the hunt. Others say that early man hearded animals into caves for easy keeping and hunting, and that the cave paintings are the result of having materials on hand and subjects nearby.” - How does that change anything? ”regardless, you're digging pretty deep to make a point. You're sighting the oldest art we are aware of; from PREHISTORY and challenging me to give you facts about it. asking me who mentored those artists. we'll never know that, and speculating one way or the other is just that: speculation.” - I’m not asking for facts I’m asking you to be more open minded. “It could be someone just came up with it some day. or maybe a traditional artist in amedium that didn't survive tens of thousands of years adapted his skills to that new medium. And on the same point: if it were just one artist, and he didn't teach the artform to others... such as which pigments would stay on the stone and not fade, we would not be able to have this discussion, because there wouldn't be enough of the art to make up this topic.” - Now who’s speculating? ”really I have no Idea what your point with this line of discussion was.” - That’s obvious. ”DaVinci was a Master Painter in a world where that meant something. Do you know what it is that it meant back then? Patrons. People who give you money to keep doing art. YES, Marketability. The thing that drove Davinci was nature. His greatest teacher was the world; but only after he acheived the level of master. The same is true of Picasso, the transformation was only possible after a lifetime of traditional study. I don't really know what your point is, but you keep managing to be off base in your examples.” - So art to you is only art if it’s marketable and learned, wow that’s deep. ”According to the Dictionary definition of art, which is perfectly inclusive; no... the world is not filled with art. One must ACT on the world for art to be created. And I don't know what you're talking about with your Dogma quote either.” - Mere labels, mere definitions - more restrictions, more boxes to place in the things you don’t truly understand. “let me re-clarify the discussion: ”Traditional Dance style instruction and performance to build a lexicon of meaningful historically sound communication learned from other cultures VS free-form expression without the benefit of complete understanding of the meaning behind gestural communication appropriated from other cultures.” - Traditional or non-traditional dance comes from the same wellspring of creation, one is just structured by pre existing limitations. This is not wrong if this is what you want to do, but it also does not make you right or better than those non-traditionalists who buck the system in pursuit of creative freedom of expression without the limitations. ”so what is it you are talking about?” - Essentially the ignorance and audacity of small-minded people to accept any idea or expression save their own as valid. A collection of flawed half formed ideas and expectations that show a refusal of flexibility and acceptance to allow artist of all levels to express themselves as is their own hearts desire. Thank you for proving my point. Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:46:32 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#1de40db6-7cd1-4a6f-8e0a-c7b7f8443fb6 Mr Oracle 2005-07-13T18:46:32Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#d8720f49-6323-4338-b98b-3950983ce168 Look, you're going to have to get comfotable with the FACT that Loki's exposure to art, and Bellydance in particular, is NOT limited. Obviously you don't know him, so stop jumping to conclusions about him. as far as who taught Cave Artists? I'm guessing the cave artist who came before them? Most Anthropologists follow a theory that the act of doing that art was a form of magic; giving primitive man power over his future kills on the hunt. Others say that early man hearded animals into caves for easy keeping and hunting, and that the cave paintings are the result of having materials on hand and subjects nearby. regardless, you're digging pretty deep to make a point. You're sighting the oldest art we are aware of; from PREHISTORY and challenging me to give you facts about it. asking me who mentored those artists. we'll never know that, and speculating one way or the other is just that: speculation. It could be someone just came up with it some day. or maybe a traditional artist in amedium that didn't survive tens of thousands of years adapted his skills to that new medium. And on the same point: if it were just one artist, and he didn't teach the artform to others... such as which pigments would stay on the stone and not fade, we would not be able to have this discussion, because there wouldn't be enough of the art to make up this topic. really I have no Idea what your point with this line of discussion was. DaVinci was a Master Painter in a world where that meant something. Do you know what it is that it meant back then? Patrons. People who give you money to keep doing art. YES, Marketability. The thing that drove Davinci was nature. His greatest teacher was the world; but only after he acheived the level of master. The same is true of Picasso, the transformation was only possible after a lifetime of traditional study. I don't really know what your point is, but you keep managing to be off base in your examples. According to the Dictionary definition of art, which is perfectly inclusive; no... the world is not filled with art. One must ACT on the world for art to be created. And I don't know what you're talking about with your Dogma quote either. let me re-clarify the discussion: Traditional Dance style instruction and performance to build a lexicon of meaningful historically sound communication learned from other cultures VS free-form expression without the benefit of complete understanding of the meaning behind gestural communication appropriated from other cultures. so what is it you are talking about? Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:54:05 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#d8720f49-6323-4338-b98b-3950983ce168 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-13T17:54:05Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#499190c0-7e6d-4125-ba6c-91e10f3bd91c Ok since this seems to be moving more toward a sensible discussion rather than mud slinging, and because you asked so nicely, here is what I have to say: As an answer the first question; I will attend any event I know about and/or am invited to, so no I haven’t been to them all, but then I was not the one arbitrarily bashing an entire group of performers. I’d be more than happy to attend their events if I could and knew when and where they are. The point I was trying to make is that attacking people or their art in a blanket fashion based on your own (limited) exposure is wrong, no matter how you try to justify it. As far as the second question; How about the earliest cave drawings or any primitive art? Who were their teachers? Is it not really art because there is no set of guidelines to define it? I figure even then there was probably some contention, “Grog! quit dicking around, smudging crap on the wall and get back to hunting”, a bit facetious I know but I like to think of every artist as at least a little misunderstood and under appreciated. Art has existed in every form since time began, constantly growing and changing as time moves forward. Yes many artists had previous training even Davinci but even then is Andrea del Verrocchio, who was his main instructor in Florence, a household name, even though he was technically the “master”. Davinci took the knowledge but it was the man himself and his personal interpretation and relentless pursuit of new ideas that made him a great artist,. Nor is it apparent looking at the body of his work, was he concerned about the marketability of everything he did. He just used his natural talents to enable himself to pursue his creative interests. Piccasso is much the same, due to the general lack of enthusiasm for his work and fueled by raw emotion and possibly derision for the existing ideals he began to experiment with the forms, began to adapt and only then did he find the true artist within himself. Picasso is a perfect example of how changing your outlook on an art is the key to progress, not a narrow scope of what is good and bad. The reason art is subjective is because for both the viewer and the creator there are so many factors upon which they base their interpretation. The way you grew up, things that happened to you, places you’ve been, things you’ve seen, things you’ve done, and every aspect of your life affects your outlook and appreciation for the arts and the artist themselves. No one can say what deep-rooted feelings, or memories of your lifetime can be surmised and pulled from the expression of the arts. Walk a mile in a man’s shoes, you will never truly know the man because you are made of different stuff and may be similar but are unique. I didn’t attack a person so much as a belief that one interpretation over another can be classified as right or wrong. True art exists with or without humanity, look around at the world that surrounds you and tell me I’m wrong. We as humans all have a different story to tell and we are all just in the process of trying to understand our own worth and the creative process as it compels us and that can never be wrong. The main point I think I am trying to make is that pushing negativity of any type begets negativity and stunts not only our growth as artists but as humans. When pushed to the extreme it becomes a belief and to take a quote from Kevin Smith’s Dogma, “…I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.” This kind of ultra-critical idealism can be dangerous, as the Taliban proved when they basically outlawed the arts. With all the governing laws and restrictions already a factor in human existence, limitations should never be placed on something as fundamental, necessary and fulfilling as personal and/ or artistic expression. Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:03:27 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#499190c0-7e6d-4125-ba6c-91e10f3bd91c Mr Oracle 2005-07-13T17:03:27Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#148180cd-f5c6-491f-ba2c-254217a969df "Second since this is an intellectual discussion..." You know, Xhem has some excellent points, as does your lovely wife in the aspect of listening. So since this is a happy intellectual discussion, I would be enthralled to hear your answers to Xhem. What are your thoughts? Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:53:47 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#148180cd-f5c6-491f-ba2c-254217a969df Kat 2005-07-13T05:53:47Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#72294e1c-cdd8-46c1-8c9a-532ca6d51774 "okay, although I was trying to be nice, and not start anything - this debate did not make me happy. The words are hurtful and hit me straight to the core." Actually, you did well, and I compliment you. You kept it above board and professional, and attempted to make others see where you were coming from without resorting to personal attacks. I think that's wonderful, and I like you all the more for it. I also think it adds a lot of credibility to anything you said, more than--forgive me--your husband's. Both in the rules of debate and in just simple human respect I think you did incredibly well and comported yourself with dignity, and I was impressed all the way though. Not that you'll ever see the compliment, but it needed said anyway. Though I still stand by my other post, and what I said about the difference between competition and toxic, and that even with the most passion in the world...well hells, imagine everywhere you go, every day, everyone spoke just like the post that hurt you, all the time, 24/7. How would you feel? Being completly honest with yourself, if no one else, how long would you last? You dont have to answer here, just think about it. "Keep the "happy intellectual debate" happy..." I agree. I apologize, though not TO your husband. I am of 2 minds about this. The first is you are right, Ineed to be less personal in return, though at 3 am on 3 hours sleep, I am seriously NOT at my best. I need to endeavor to not be so...nasty, I guess, about it in the future. The irony of giving you a compliment on a trait I failed to embody does not escape me. However, the second is my other side, the side I try to balance. Its the side that says if a man picks up a gun, he has automatically taken responsibility for becoming a threat to others, and to take a life as well as save one. Because of this, he should not be surprised if his force is met with equal force in return, up to and unto death. My first fighting teacher taught me that, and I have never forgotten it. I have backed away from fights rather than swing because of it, because I could never forget that force will be met with equal force in kind. I see this reflected in life everyday, including debate, the force you give is the push you receive back. When he struck a blow, I saw his blow struck even at you, despite being his SO, since he didnt include you as an exception to his insults, or otherwise indicate in any way other than his username that he would consider you exempt, and I leapt to push back in defense of everyone in the discussion, including you. If it was something he didnt desire, he should have taken a lesson fron your book. I dont feel the need to apologize for defending myself or those I respect, nor do I see stooping to another's level as anything to be ashamed of, but instead as a good way to hamstring them. And yeah, calling himself Mr. Oracle made him pretty obvious as who he belonged to, riding on the coattails of your personality, but not as obvious were his intents. For the record. Someone slaps my face, I slap back. I'm not Christian, I see no benefit in turning the other cheek. Blame my Norse roots. And again, for the record, the topic started as an attack on a dance form and a culture, but Mr. Oracle's attack was actually on PEOPLE, and that makes a BIG difference to me. However, you're right, I could pick my battles--or the way I fight them--better, and do more than simply stir the pot. For that, at least, you do have my apologies. I'm a good little Norse chick, I am good at swinging a sword and excellent at passion, but not so hot at this balance thing. Or tact. Happy dancing, and I hope to see you someday. I have a feeling it will be a treat. :) Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:49:00 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#72294e1c-cdd8-46c1-8c9a-532ca6d51774 Kat 2005-07-13T05:49:00Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#ac97666b-dcbd-42fd-9c46-f5f8865d670d To this from Ziah: "Why are you pointing to Tribal exactly?" and "I am just assuming that since you are lambasting Tribal and I pretty much am the most public Tribal person in Atlanta that you must be slamming me..." I offer this: "In Tribal, honestly, I also love the ability to mesh. It was based in the idea that girls who had learned jazz or ballet or other forms of dance saw a way to mesh some moves and went for it, fusing it into something new and somewhat daring, and they called it a new form because they were often ousted from all the preeners in the bellydance community for daring to be creative and play with their art instead of staying "traditional." I have also often heard in these parts women flocked to it because the preener ousted them for everything from being too tall to having tattoos. One girl was refused lessons because her hair was black, no shit." This was in an earlier post *I* wrote. Did you even READ this thread? Not only that, but I have to say, I have NEVER heard your name in connection to Tribal dancing in this town. I might have heard your troupe's name, but I'm noticing you didnt mention its name here, only yours. I was lambasting the entire unfreindly, overly preening community that I have seen alienate a lot of GOOD talent, and this seems to be a working example of EXACTLY what was being discussed here. Thank you for backing up my point. Not that you'll see this. I love how when the going gets tough, the tough jump ship. At least Oracle had a good reason. And for the record to both Oracle and Ziah: There is a difference between healthy competition and being just plain EVIL to anotyher person. Competition is competitive pricing, its working harder and dancing just plain better than others, its charisma and knowing how to sell yourself. Just plain EVIL is nasty gossip, unfounded rumors, making people feel about to feet tall, making beginners cry or shunning a real desire to learn for stupid reasons. And yes, tatttoos and/or black hair is a STUPID reason. People like to say people who cant cut it in these enviornments just arent "passionate" enough, but in fact often the exact opposite is true. They are TOO passionate, and sensative in their passion. Its like jumping up and down on an exquisitely made vase and then saying it just wasnt STRONG enough when it broke. The thing is, the innate beauty of the vase was in its slender curves and beautiful fragility made into a piece of art. People are the same, they come in all molds, and some are shyer or more sensative than others. Demanding they "keep up or shut up"--which is essentially what you're doing when you tell them they arent cutting it and its because of a flaw in themselves--is not only avoidance ofg a very real issue, but devaluing anything they have have to say so YOU wont feel bad or responsible. In fact, in a toxic enviornment--and I have seen this time and again not only in many different people, but over the course of several states--does emotionally the same thing it will do physically. Those thing delicate, those things beautifuul, the flowers and small wild animals of the emotional world, will wither and die. The more hearty ones will move elsewhere, leaving only the creatures able to live for long periods in muck and filth, those who like to wallow in it. Take that as you will, that is pointed at no one, only a metaphor to explain my point. Its a deferral of responsibility to say someone "just isnt passionate enough" or otherwise "couldnt cut it," and in the end the only people you hurt is yourselves. There is a BIG difference between a competitive enviornment and an immoral, uncaring, winner-takes-all cut throat one. Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:22:49 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#ac97666b-dcbd-42fd-9c46-f5f8865d670d Kat 2005-07-13T05:22:49Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#a6ecd4f2-0a17-4854-bdec-16bd1923434a thank you Oracle. that was very informative, and answers many of the questions put forth. Wed, 13 Jul 2005 02:45:02 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#a6ecd4f2-0a17-4854-bdec-16bd1923434a ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-13T02:45:02Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#b79a3f4f-f733-478d-8922-6954b0ec607d Re " the Bellydanznicks" I was thunkun the otra dia, when I was a strapping twenty something, I thought i would become a great heavey metal music star, I empathize with the young wormens obsession with the middle Eastern dance thang. Maybe the will all grow up to be famous bellydance moguls, or maybe they will end up in construction? Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:15:22 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#b79a3f4f-f733-478d-8922-6954b0ec607d $item.owner.firstName 2005-07-12T22:15:22Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#be6e43cd-2f13-4b0e-b1f2-0c4d24b62ff4 DaVinci spent a lifetime studiing classically before the events you chronicled. Have you ever seen Picasso's early work? He was a Brilliant photo-realistst. (before the term was used) He also spent a Long hard time learning the Classical craft of painting before he became a master of experimentation. Give me some examples of great artists who Weren't classiclly trained their entire young lives and then we can talk. (I'll bet they're all from the last 60 years of history) Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:26:38 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#be6e43cd-2f13-4b0e-b1f2-0c4d24b62ff4 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-12T18:26:38Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#4ce82fc3-eb1d-474b-bf88-a11dcdeebe3e Funny... I didn't see you at many of the other dance events that Saraii and Hungry Flower have put on over the last years.... I wonder... Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:20:51 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#4ce82fc3-eb1d-474b-bf88-a11dcdeebe3e ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-12T18:20:51Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#bcf3bc91-1f19-495b-b693-9917f9de2883 "Tue, July 12, 2005 - 9:59 AM Re: Bellydance Loki... I believe that getting laid would do wonders for your perspective on things. Though I thought your initial post on this subject was quite funny, you may want to consider allowing people to do what they enjoy doing... free of senseless bashing. " Allow me to say on Loki's behalf: HA! (he has a beautiful talented WIFE.... maybe you should read this thread a little bit closer) Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:18:10 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#bcf3bc91-1f19-495b-b693-9917f9de2883 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-12T18:18:10Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#18dd8f48-e4d7-4af0-89cf-2f9fe1168e86 XZ wrote: "still no talk about the style?" Dance is movement, the definition I teach my students is "dance is the physical embodiment of music". Trying to explain it in words is useless, educate yourself by coming to class and performances. Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:04:57 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#18dd8f48-e4d7-4af0-89cf-2f9fe1168e86 Ziah 2005-07-12T18:04:57Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#ef969723-2375-4135-9c86-fef811ad149d this is my last post... I'm afraid that I'm spending too much time letting it get under my skin and not enough time dancing... :) So, I'm taking my leave from this discussion to pursue my passions. Happy dancing y'all! Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:22:23 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#ef969723-2375-4135-9c86-fef811ad149d Oracle 2005-07-12T17:22:23Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#16119d96-b00c-49f0-8505-65acf4014556 Oh my god! thank you sooo much for such a great post, I can't stop laughing. First of all Oracle is my wife (thus Mr. Oracle) so that is why I felt compelled to write, and which was my personal connection besides my own interest in, and capacity for the arts. Also, the Decatur Arts Festival was the first time I ever saw Loki and I go to every dance event I can, cabaret and tribal, and have for the last 5 years (I’m the long hair with the crazy button up shirts usually packing a video camera these days) so that means that his "opinion" and your defense of that "opinion" is already unjustified by lack of adequate exposure to the community. And yes I do love all the dancers, just because I don’t get it doesn’t mean it’s bad, nor do I believe that my opinion is the end all be all final word on what is good, which would be hypocritical. I prove it by supporting them whenever I can no matter who they are and I don’t post a bunch of blanket statements about their personal connection to, or understanding of, the power of creativity or their personal connection to it. Do me a favor and the next time your child brings you a drawing they did just get up on your high horse and be the art critic, tell them that it is not art or at the very least not good art. And I’m hypocritical. If you are going to offer criticism based on your personal feelings and opinions be constructive and direct, there is no burden of proof to be met, this is not a court of law to prove this or that it is an open forum of a mere difference of opinion and taste. Second since this is an intellectual discussion I interject the following. Studying art history you know that there were many different periods of art. Also, we know that in the majority of cases when people first saw each of theses new art forms such as Pointillism, Surrealism or Impressionism the “majority” hated it, especially following the classic styles of Romanticism, Realism and Neoclassism. However these artists disregarded the existing rules and ideas about art and struck out on their own making a new style that was different but equally valid. I find it interesting to not that most artists were never truly appreciated until the mentality of the “majority” caught up to their revolutionary process of creation. DaVinci himself went against the norm, to the point of being criminal to pursue his art (grave robbing anyone), and to this day people still don’t fully understand his work but they generally appreciate it. Why is he so great? Because, he pushed his personal (and professional) boundaries and understanding of art, nature, and science to the limits, exploring without guidelines or restrictions but rather an undaunted curiosity about the nature of the universe and therefore creation. I am sure there were plenty of other people, forgotten or never important enough for history to remember, which provided the inspiration and support for his greatness and they are no less important to the process. Personally I have felt all the negativity surrounding art, no matter what the form, coming from frustrated artists who feel misunderstood or under appreciated for their own art that project their derision and cynicism on others while hiding behind the idea that they are preserving the integrity of it. Thus the art critic is born. I stand by everything I said and give no quarter. And though I respect your opinions as valid and important, they are not nor ever will be mine. As Loki said we just have to agree to disagree. Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:14:17 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#16119d96-b00c-49f0-8505-65acf4014556 Mr Oracle 2005-07-12T17:14:17Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#ce4b41fb-56ae-4e9d-b053-e765d8273579 Loki... I believe that getting laid would do wonders for your perspective on things. Though I thought your initial post on this subject was quite funny, you may want to consider allowing people to do what they enjoy doing... free of senseless bashing. Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:59:19 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#ce4b41fb-56ae-4e9d-b053-e765d8273579 Mullaria 2005-07-12T16:59:19Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#bf356ce5-221b-47da-a9e3-076aca6f9223 I believed I asked Loki, but seeing as how no one seemed to go to the website I posted earlier, here's the article I found... The Elusive Definition of Tribal Belly Dance by Sharon Moore Different Styles of Tribal Belly Dance Tribal isn't "just tribal" any more. These days it seems everyone has a different take on the various terms floating around. With new terms and interpretations popping up all the time, it's hard to know what someone means by what they say any more when talking about "tribal belly dance". I use the term "tribal belly dance" to generally refer to most styles of this dance, excluding the direct stylistic ancestors of FatChanceBellyDance, which I refer to as ATS (see further definition below); but really there are many different sub-genres which are more concise when discussing specific interpretations, aesthetics, and philosophies encompassed within the greater category of tribal belly dance. Much like saying "belly dance" is usually enough information when discussing this art casually, from a scholarly standpoint, we all know there is Arabic, Egyptian, Turkish, Lebanese, and so on which can be defined if one wishes to go into greater detail. I wrote this article to outline MY PERSONAL take on the current trends in tribal terminology. I invite you to take what you will from it. I always welcome comments and questions, so ple ase feel free to write with your thoughts. Old School/Classic Tribal Belly Dance Tribal and ATS dance forms are rooted in a movement in the US in the 70's, mainly driven by "folkloric" groups performing at Renaissance Faires in California. Drawing it's movements, costuming, and general inspiration from the tribal cultures of the Near East, Middle East, Northern Africa/Maghreb, and Spain, the then-named "California Tribal" belly dance was, and it's current incarnations continue to be, a conglomeration of many different influences, not the least of which being what we recognize as traditional belly dance (Raqs Sharki/Danse Orientale...). The precursor to tribal improvisational belly dance, the Rennaisance Faire groups such as the famous "Bal Anat" and lesser known but still pivotal "Bou-Saada", were made up primarily of dancers who eschewed the nightclub aesthetics and demands, as well as the flashier costuming it embraced. This "rebellious" sister to cabaret style, performed in what could be called more ethnic-inspired costumes-- natural fiber elements, coin decorated accessories, etc--performed to live and recorded earthy unsynthesized music, I call "Classic Tribal" or sometimes "Old School Tribal". Tribal Belly Dance Tribal belly dance's main focus is on a group improvisational style. Participants learn a common vocabulary of movement, and through subtle cueing and a lot of practice to develop non-verbal communication, dancers can create a performance in the moment that, to the audience, appears choreographed. And yet, while this dance has wide appeal to audiences and many dancers turn their intentions toward the entertainment value of tribal belly dance, the dance itself is does not necessitate performance on stage for an audience. This dance draws also on some of the cultural conventions of the tribal peoples it emulates, and many women find great camaraderie, comfort, trust, and friendship through the dance experience, and devote their time to the social and emotional aspects of the dance. The opportunity to communicate through the body, through the music, and through the group dynamic appeals to many dancer's sense of community, which is encouraged and fostered in classes and "open dance" venues. Tribal style movement is one important, and sometimes sublte, aspect to tribal belly dance. Discussions of the style has yielded a wide consensus that tribal movement has a stronger emphasis on isolations. Specifically keeping portions of the body firmly erect and still while other portions move with marked precision and a greater degree of repitition. While in other forms of belly dance, isolations are also part of the aesthetic, in tribal isolations are more severe and in sharper contrast to the movement. Costuming is often colorful and involves many layers, with large full skirts and/or full patnaloons, Indian-style cholis, hip scarves, tassel belts and/or long fringe, and some sort of detailed head wrap, decorations, or turban. Often, a coin bra or tribal-decorated bra is worn. Any or all of these elements can be mixed and matched with other "ethnic" pieces, but in general, this is the uniform of tribal belly dance. Individual interpretations are always encouraged, but some basic guidelines to stay within tribal styling include: natural fabrics such as cottons and silks, velvets, rich and bold coloring, shisha and other ethnic embroidery, mirror-work, tassels, layering, mixing and matching (not coordinating too closely), coins and bells, chunky necklaces, bracelets and other jewelry, "tribal" make-up and facial markings, and more. Things to avoid: chiffon and other filmy fabrics, heavy/dense sequin and bead work, pastels, tailored belt bases, flashy appliqué, bare legs, tight fitting skirts/dresses, delicate jewelry, heavy use of satin or "high shine" fabrics, gauntlets or epaulettes, pailettes, lamé, etc. Again, these are general guidelines. Depending on many factors too numerous to enumerate, the use of any of these elements in various combinations may or may not water down the "tribalness" of the overall costume. The aesthetic becomes easier to "feel out" as one studies the dance in more depth over time. "FatChance" Style ATS FatChance and Carolena Nericcio, as far as I know, were the ones who first garnered the label ATS (American Tribal Style)--an alteration of the term "California Tribal", a term whos coinage is attributed to Morocco of NY, which is part of the roots of the tribal family tree (see above in "Classic Tribal"). While this term is often used to describe most all styles of improvisational tribal belly dance, in my common lexicon, I use this term mainly to define the FatChanceBellyDance style of tribal belly dance and its directly traceable descendants, which is the original format of group improvisational belly dance and the precursor to other forms of Tribal as we know it today. ATS has many iterations now that it has spread to other cities and has been interpreted by many different dancers and teachers. What this term encompasses stylistically would take a long time to explain, as it has more to do with the specific dance vocabulary, nuances of the moves such as body alignment, arm placement, accents, and cues, and somewhat with costuming. For instance, the standard stretch choli/coin bra/banded skirt/full pantaloons/large turban/tassel belt style was created by FatChance, and is easy to spot. Beyond that, the style is easily recognized once a dancer becomes familiar with vocabularies and stylistic choices of different troupes. For more information on my personal observations of the different between ATS and Tribal Style belly dance, see my e-mail to an inquiring friend in response to her questions about ATS/tribal belly dance here (in the Tutorials section). Tribal Fusion There are many interpretations of the concept of Tribal Fusion, so herein I will include mine. Tribal fusion, to me, refers to the marriage of choreographed and improvisational forms, specifically with significant emphasis given to what would be considered "American Nightclub" or "Cabaret" styles of belly dance; but can also refer to emphases on specific ethnic dance influences, such as "Indian Fusion", "Flamenco Fusion", "African Fusion", and the like. Additionally, tribal fusion has, in my defintion, come to also encompass soloists in the tribal style--solo dancers using movement and costuming common to the group improvisational format. One could say a soloist inspired by or heavily influenced by ATS/tribal is a Tribal Fusion Dancer (such as Rachel Brice) Tribal Fusion is the combination of tribal belly dancing and costuming with influences of other belly dance and related dance styles which do not necessarily appear in the common tribal belly dance movement vocabulary. For instance, the incorporation of predominantly Indian stylings, such as mudras and footwork might create a fusion (such as inFusion Tribal's Bhangra Fusion). The use of djembes in musical selections, and the addition of African shimmies and stomping could be called a fusion (such as Domba!). The combination of hip hop-inspired pops and locks with jazz floor patterns and Western music would create a fusion (such as Urban Tribal Dance Company). So long as the many or most of the basic elements which define tribal (see above) are still predominant in the performance, it could be referred to as a tribal fusion. Once the common definitions of tribal belly dance are discarded, it would no longer, in my opinion, be appropriate to use the term "tribal fusion", and crosses into folkloric dances, general bellydance fusion, or what I term "tribaret". Tribaret Tribaret is a word I coined out of necessity to be clear about the current fad of tribal (as of 2002-2005), wherein groups seem to be rushing to embrace the word "tribal", whether they are studying/incorporating all the details that go along with that moniker or not. Others may be using this same term to define another phenomenon or style, but herein is how I coined this word to mean. I use the term tribaret mainly to refer to the fusion of tribal belly dance--usually in costume only--with the cabaret style of belly dance, absent of some of the basic criteria which defines tribal belly dance. Tribaret can refer to performances done in tribal costume in which improvisation is very minimally used and the remainder of the performance is distinctly cabaret in style, performances where tribal costuming is used but no tribal moves or concepts are used at all, a performance in which improv is used significantly yet the costumes are distinctly cabaret inspired, and so on. Ultimately, it is a fusion of tribal and cabaret in which the key elements of tribal are nearly or completely removed, such that the greater emphasis is on cabaret elements. For instance, a group that does a lot of tribal improv, but wears only panel skirts over bare legs, bras, and epaulettes would be tribaret. A troupe that does a cabaret style choreographed dance while wearing heavy skirts, mirror cholis, and tassel belts is tribaret. There are many nuances which are involved in what is tribal style versus cabaret, but usually a distinction can be made when, as mentioned before, key elements which define tribal are left out and only small hints (or claim) of being tribal truly remains. Remember ladies, if definitions were all in the costume, then a TV repairman could call himself a heart surgeon if he put on scrubs. The costume just does not define the dancer as tribal. Concentrated study of the art does. East Coast Tribal This is a new term that has been cropping up lately, and it seems important that it be acknowledged. As many well know, Tribal belly dance has its roots on the West Coast, and the growth and innovations driving the "movement" of this art form still largely originate there. As a result, there have been few to no instructors on the East Coast of the US to teach this dance to interested dancers there. Video only goes so far, and where media instruction left off, many dancers back East began to develop their own interpretations of tribal based on their experiences in their communities. Being that most of them had little or no exposure to the improvisational formats, but instead possess a body of experience in choreographed forms, the dancers in the East have created a "look feel" tribal dance form which emulates the costuming, music, and presentation of tribal, but without the improvisational key that defines Tribal. It is a closer ancestor to classic/old school tribal than ATS. The new term, East Coast Tribal, is meant to define these new branches of the Tribal belly dance family tree, and encompasses those new forms developing which attempt to create the Tribal look and feel but without the improvisational aspects. It may also refer to groups which I tend to lump under the "Tribaret" definition, though I personally feel they are mutually distinct approaches to the dance. Clarification: This definition *does not* imply that all East Coast dancers who do tribal are choreographed (any more than all American Tribal Style dancers are American, right?), but instead that this style has it's origins in the East Coast. The definition is meant to illustrat that one of the iterations of tribal has been a throwback to classic tribal, only coming out of the East Coast this time, which is a choreographed form of tribal with the look and feel of ATS. There are definitely many schools of improviational tribal coming out of the East Coast (and it is growing all the time, with more festivals and workshops, as well as teachers cropping up to feed the growth of this style in the East), but this term is not referring to them, who would naturally fall under any number of the definitions enumerated above. East Coast Tribal is referring to the uniquely East Coast style of choreographed tribal which grew out of ATS/tribal look and feel, and frankly also from the large SCA population which grew up around Pennsic campfires (which touches the edges or overlaps with the Classic Tribal definition above). All The Rest There are many other considerations in defining different styles of dance. Presentation, music, costuming, and even attitude play large roles in creating this style. I certainly don't have all the answers, and I don't think any will for a long time. Much like art, solid definitions come much later when looking back. You don't think the "Impressionists" were called impressionists when they began painting, do you? Well, neither are the artists in this ever evolving genre of belly dance going to be able to be pinned down and defined until a comfortalbe niche is dug out--until consistent details of the work are developed and stands the test of time. In the meantime, we will continue to discuss, debate, grow, and learn together. Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:40:52 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#bf356ce5-221b-47da-a9e3-076aca6f9223 Oracle 2005-07-12T16:40:52Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#a5b90715-9253-47d7-9b57-01b70c762064 he was yelling? I didn't get that... <<you would have read people talking about a lot of back-biting, gossip, and prima-donnaing, and that wasnt just unhappy rumbling from the non-enlightened. This is real expereinces people are having here, in this very town.>> yes, they are real experiences, but those of us who are passionate and hurt by the venom in Loki's original post still keep pursuing our passion. If you truly love something you keep going - even through the crap. That's a true artist. If professionals dropped out because they didn't want to deal with this community, it's their own fault for not having enough passion for what they did. They listened too much to the exact same thing, the exact same venom that is coming through this discussion - they didn't have the ability to shake it off and keep going... <<happily intellectual debate >> okay, although I was trying to be nice, and not start anything - this debate did not make me happy. The words are hurtful and hit me straight to the core. I am not one to argue, but to try to understand where a person is coming from. I may not like what he had to say but I respect what he had to say... something that you yourself are not showing by attacking someone elses post. You may feel like Mr. Oracle is attacking you, but take the high road and don't attack back. Ask questions, find out where he's coming from in his discussion... Keep the "happy intellectual debate" happy... Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:36:34 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#a5b90715-9253-47d7-9b57-01b70c762064 Oracle 2005-07-12T16:36:34Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#681fad3b-e1ae-4dd3-8b78-9cfe81bbe891 still no talk about the style? Just upset we're discussing it? What are the parameters guiding what moves and or styles are incorporated? What is the overall philosophy of communication? What is the purpose of Tribal Bellydance? there are much more articulate questions in the earlieast posts.... the only answers I've heard are basiclly that the form is to ape moves that the performers have seen "somewhere" (cited have been Egyptian, Cabaret, hip hop, and a number of others) and use them. also someone said "constant arm movement". so is that it? appropriate moves wherever you feel like it and wave your arms? is that the structure of the style? cause you know.... THAT's what we're talking about. This has devolved into a catty discussion about cattiness; which is the least of the things Loki had to say. So what about it? someone care to elaborate on the process of Tribal Bellydance? Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:29:48 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#681fad3b-e1ae-4dd3-8b78-9cfe81bbe891 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-12T16:29:48Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#0046d95c-1888-43e7-9659-e6016c43f816 thats what i 'thought' as well. guess i got con-fused with all these other responses. bottom line...art is art. there is no right or wrong in it. you can like what an artist is doing..or not, but you cant say its 'wrong'. its their interpretation...THEIR art. alot of people bitch about alot of things they dont even know about. so what? lead by example, not by trying to belittle somebody who just doesnt know any better. those of us IN the bellydance community, specifically the Tribal dancers, know how far we have come and how hard we have worked. Its difficult to be authentic when nothing really is. Everything has been done, somewhere before. But we keep it is close to the original move as possible and pour our hearts, imagination, experience and interpretation into it. we get along with other dancers, bellydance or not...and try to support each other as we often know first hand the personal struggles we have been thru as a bellydancer. you cant group us all into one type any more than you could with any other type of artist/performer. even in troupes we are extremely individual...like Tribes. it took more that one person to make Tribal what it is and one person certainly cant undo whats been done;> Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:24:29 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#0046d95c-1888-43e7-9659-e6016c43f816 ~ISA'S 2005-07-12T14:24:29Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#976b09f0-4259-47b4-9c7f-2bae7942460d Terra wrote: "If Loki complains, its for good reason. Unifying my ass. Had you read the abve posts, you would have read people talking about a lot of back-biting, gossip, and prima-donnaing, and that wasnt just unhappy rumbling from the non-enlightened. This is real expereinces people are having here, in this very town. I have seen countless GOOD professionals quit here because they just couldnt stand it anymore, and many more just left town. Those who are happiest with their dancing either pepper it with other things or frequently leave town on jobs, and get less exposure to what seems overall a toxic community. Mentioning the obvious doesnt make one hateful, any more than ignoring a problem makes you tolerant or the problem not exist. Its here, and no amount of intellectual double-talk or finger pointing will make it go away." Why are you pointing to Tribal exactly? unless you are willing to cite specific instances I think you need to accept that any group of professionals is going to be competitive. Some people can't handle the competition so they drop out of the professional world and become hobbyist again. I personally hate vying for restaurant work because of the devisiveness it creates so I choose to participate in the dance world another way by teaching; producing and participating in stage shows; and teaching and sponsoring workshops so that I can make a living supporting and teaching other dancers. This gives me a chance to interact with tons and tons of dancers which I love! Am I taking the easy way out? Hell no! It is hard making choices of who is performing in my events, directing a troupe is a constant balance of letting creativity rule and cutting to the chase so that we can actually produce a body of work, running a show is absolute mayhem especially when I am a stickler for them starting exactly on time (all my shows have)... I am just assuming that since you are lambasting Tribal and I pretty much am the most public Tribal person in Atlanta that you must be slamming me...not that anyone has the balls to say their specific gripes. I talked to many show and troupe directors when I was considering forming a troupe and they all said to me "You have to be willing to be considered a bitch since there is no way for every decision you make or opinion you have to be accepted by everyone." I was not okay with that but have come to understand the truth of it....I cannot make everyone happy but I have to balance of presenting something that the audience wants to see with being happy doing what I love on a day to day basis since I am planning on doing this as my "real job" for the rest of my life. Sorry if some decisions I have made in the past are not so popular, can't make everyone happy, such is life, but I am here for the long haul through all of the pain...not everyone is willing to stick it out. Do I have time for any more of this discussion? not really, I have to go work on the production of my second sold out show for the week and spend time with my 8 month old daughter...see, being able to work at home during the day also gives me the ability to raise my daughter without putting her in daycare. Maybe supporting moms that are working out alternative ways to make a living instead of slamming them should be someone's goal....Ava calls.... Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:16:26 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#976b09f0-4259-47b4-9c7f-2bae7942460d Ziah 2005-07-12T14:16:26Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#a9ea8d74-9b6a-40a8-a783-8642c9d87b8f <<Can nobody here offer up any of the things he's asked to have revealed? the basics of the form being discussed (we all know dance styles are about the moves thank you.)? I think Loki made some very specific points that have a weighty feel of truth to them, but nobody has responded with his same cander... except to disagree with him without argueing any of his points. >> Loki, please explain what it is you are truly asking for... I thought it was the moves and form that you questioned about Tribal dancing. Is that not it? Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:04:53 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#a9ea8d74-9b6a-40a8-a783-8642c9d87b8f Oracle 2005-07-12T14:04:53Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c5ae213f-721c-49a6-8949-be01e90f23dc This analogy has come up a couple times; that Traditionalism stifles growth. But that isn't the whole story. think about gardening. What grows fastest? is it fruit bearing plants, or succulant flowers? no. weeds grow fastest. They grow fast and out of control, and they proliferate. But they are no good to eat, and strangle other plants. To get fruit, to get vegatables, to get a beautiful garden; one must cultivate. To get the goods, you have to do some work. You have to box certain areas in, so your good soil won't escape. You have to pull those weeds when they creep into your garden. you have to make sure the plants are watered and fed, and that insects are kept off of them. If you don't follow the wisdom of Farmers, thousands of years in the making, you will more than likly end up with a poor crop, if any at all. Most of what must be done to cultivate prevents freeform growth... but it yeilds more useful and palpable results. Sometimes structure is what is needed to really create something new. How can you create something new if you don't have a grasp on what has come before? as I've said earlier; I wanted to stay out of the technical areas of this conversation, because my knowledge of bellydance is less than those gathered here. however, I find I want to participate in this semantical part of the conversation. There IS good and bad art. You KNOW there is. You've seen both, and saying you havn't is shining sunshine up everyone's ass, yourself included. The fact is that everything is NOT ALL GOOD. Some things are bad. were this a conversation between a bunch of know-nothings off the street, you could say that "I like this, you like that... its probably all art" but the fact that all (save myself) here are literal experts in the feild being discussed means that the opinions expressed here have validity. They are critiques, by Artists who know what they're talking about. to me it would be sad if this conversation ended without any actual discussion of Loki's points rather than this simple sidestep. Can nobody here offer up any of the things he's asked to have revealed? the basics of the form being discussed (we all know dance styles are about the moves thank you.)? I think Loki made some very specific points that have a weighty feel of truth to them, but nobody has responded with his same cander... except to disagree with him without argueing any of his points. -A grateful spectator. Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:11:26 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c5ae213f-721c-49a6-8949-be01e90f23dc ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-12T08:11:26Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#73e0207e-845a-4c35-83b9-bee4c883ad06 Wow. Just wow. I'm tempted to stand back and watch what happens next, but I cant let this one pass without my own mouthful. But let me start by saying I found your personal attack on everyone here--who, before you came in were having a happily intellectual debate and were getting along quite well in spite of the differences of opinion--offensive in the extreme. "As an artist myself the idea that anyone can tell me my art is bad art is just ludicrous, my art is for me not for others." What kills me is the amount of people who run around saying this, and yet their art IS for others. They show it to others, they attempt to sell it, they want others to see it, to read it, to experience it, and if someone doesnt like it and calls it crap, they say "its not for others." Bullshit. I know artists who'se art is "not for others" and thats exactly what they mean, they create for themselves alone, should a friend like a piece they might give one away, but otherwise the artwork stays at home, lining shelves, hanging on walls, and propped in bookcases. The moment you share your art, no matter how much of yourself you put into it, it is also "for others." And should you expose your art to others, you should at least have the backbone to take the inevitable criticisms that will come with it, and not whine that "no one gets it anyway." Thats not only hypocritical, its spineless. "In EVERY art form there are true artists and posers, but each needs the other equally in order to advance art as a whole, otherwise how does art grow?" Wait, so is there really no bad art as you said previously, or isnt there? Wouldnt a poser be someone who is turning out the equivalent of a glue-and-macaroni picture and acting like he's a Picasso? Which, if so, would imply that his ego is not equal to his art, which would imply "bad art," would it not? If this isnt the case, please, by all means, I would LOVE to hear your definition of a poser. For that matter, I dont believe art needs "posers," any more than religion does, or politics, or anything else. A poser, generally speaking, isa person who puts on great airs of knowledge and competence while actually suffering under a burden of ignorance. They also often come equipped with ego, and an inability to admit they might be wrong. These people are often very harmful, and often out for their own gain--to take a pagan example, I'm sure we've all heard stories of the High Priest who seduces young initiates under the guise of such things as the Great Rite and sexual freedom--and their self importance often outstrips any compassion they might have for others. Often they leave scars that never heal. Posers are different from LEARNERS and EXPERIMENTERS, people who will try anything once, and who will try and try until they get it right, who will break new ground simply because they refuse to believe it cant be done. Art NEEDS these people. Art needs posers like it needs a hole in the head. "Staunch restriction by traditionalism only inhibits growth" Does it really now? Just like braces inhibit the natural growth patterns of teeth? Never mind that the very strength of their inhibiting factor are what shape the teeth to their best potential, molding them into the finest aspect of themselves they can possibly be, and actually reducing dental problems in the future, never mind all that. They are inhibiting, get rid of them. Lets talk butter artist, shall we? This man is a real artist working right now. He has great talent and skill, but shunned working with clay because "it was too hard to work with," direct quote. Instead, he turned to an easier medium--butter. I find this a crying shame. First of all, revering what he does is a celebration of laziness, because with a little perserverence, he could have been fantastic. He could have grasped how to work with more unweildy mediums such as clay, and left us with beautiful works of art that could have lasted for years to come, maybe even lasted the ages. Instead he has gypped us of that, and gypped himself into being a two bit pop icon riding high on his glory of novelty, but who's fame will fade with the swiftness his butter turns rancid. It makes you wonder, if a staunch traditionalist had been riding his shoulder, telling him he couldnt do it that way, bludgeoning him into not giving up on the lasting mediums, what gifts would he have left us? What gifts would he have unlocked within himself? Traditionalists are the braces of the art world, and if their touch is restrictive, restriction sometimes pulls surpassing beauty out of a medium that would otherwise have only been mediocre. "The problem is that in a community that is "trying" to unify all people by providing a common outlet of acceptance based on personal expression" Umm...no? And, ummm...no? If Loki complains, its for good reason. Unifying my ass. Had you read the abve posts, you would have read people talking about a lot of back-biting, gossip, and prima-donnaing, and that wasnt just unhappy rumbling from the non-enlightened. This is real expereinces people are having here, in this very town. I have seen countless GOOD professionals quit here because they just couldnt stand it anymore, and many more just left town. Those who are happiest with their dancing either pepper it with other things or frequently leave town on jobs, and get less exposure to what seems overall a toxic community. Mentioning the obvious doesnt make one hateful, any more than ignoring a problem makes you tolerant or the problem not exist. Its here, and no amount of intellectual double-talk or finger pointing will make it go away. And in case you're wondering where I find the difference between your rant and Loki's, Loki took to task a dance form saying he felt the dancers were undertrained, unskilled, full of themselves, and doing irreprable harm to the bellydance communityand the art form as a whole. He might be right or wrong, however, he is entitled to his opinion, and he did also open discussion on it and ask to have it pointed out to him how he might be wrong. Simply because his mind DIDNT change doesnt mean he wasnt open to it changing, only that he didnt get anything satisfactory enough to change it. You, on the other hand, decided to point out all that was bad in the art world and targeted every person who participated in this discussion and then mentioned Loki by name. Yours is a personal attack. His was a discussion on an art form and the problems he saw inherant in it. BIG fuckin difference. "I love all the dancers even those I don’t care for" You are good at self-contradiction, you know that? You dont love all the dancers, you just said you didnt. You love watching the dance. You love watching them perform their craft. This doesnt mean you'd give them money if they asked or jump in front of a bullet for them, or even give them a ride home. Your words are poser words, implying a tolerance that isnt there. Like Loki, you have limits--and I quote "I personally don’t care for Warhol and I’m not a huge fan of Picasso" and the quoted dancer thing above--and things you avoid. Nowhere did Loki even imply he didnt respect true artists, just as you respect Picasso, whom you dont like. In fact, all his condescension was aimed at people he felt were POSERS, in otherwords NOT TRUE ARTISTS. We all got that, where were you? "and history has proven that preaching at people will only attract those that are unable to think for themselves" Really now? Funny, I thought preaching at people stimulated thought and discussion, while trying to force your opinions down their throats and refusing to listen to a difference of opinion was what stifled creativity and independant thought. Since this was an intellectual discussion filled with many strong willed people dead set to stand by their beliefs, I think you have brought a fallicy to the table. And disrespected every single person in the discussion with your implication. "In other words, sorry Loki this is directed squarely at you, stop preaching and start supporting and educate by example not by argumentative persuasion." And now you're not only showing your ignorance, you're wearing it like a crown. If you had refrained from this little attack and actually stopped to get to KNOW the man you're yelling at--implementing the very tolerance you're preaching at him for not having, by the way--you'd know he pretty much puts most people to SHAME in that area. He has been trying to teach Atlanta the way of art since the early 80s, and his groups are free and open to everyone. Shows are brainstormed out by whoever has imput, and one doesnt get much less traditional than the improv his group creates. If his "negativity" spews out with such "vehnamence," that to me means his words touched you, and did so powerfully, so powerfully they received a powerful reactio9n in turn. That makes him a good writer--a good artist--so good in fact you didnt even know his art took hold of you and shook you by the balls, caused you to feel, to think, to react, to create. The negative traditionalist, everything that's wrong with the art community did that. There is no law saying an artist cannot have an intelligent discussion on what art is or is not. There is no law saying simply because you are an artist you must like and/or approve of every defectual feces that is shit out and called art. And there is a wealth of history in which our greatest works of art were produced that says, in fact, the opposite is true. You could learn a few things from every person who took place in this discussion, if you listened more and yelled less. Tue, 12 Jul 2005 06:41:36 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#73e0207e-845a-4c35-83b9-bee4c883ad06 Kat 2005-07-12T06:41:36Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c41c7d75-df20-4378-8ec0-3f7aa6d91360 what about that great Portugeese family? they were really great. I was blown away by the wheelchair peice. It made me realize what a strange world of possibilities we live in. the narratives we're imprinted with through culrture. I was suprised to say the least. Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:24:38 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c41c7d75-df20-4378-8ec0-3f7aa6d91360 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-11T20:24:38Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#fc86ddc7-5e8f-4a66-9f3a-cc69fa4f1531 Thank you Ziah, for a sensible, eloquent and insightful post after a plethora of what I see as psuedo-intellectual debate with no observable consideration to the process of creation. As an artist myself the idea that anyone can tell me my art is bad art is just ludicrous, my art is for me not for others. There is no bad art, only levels of understanding of the conditions that spawn it and/or personal tastes. I personally don’t care for Warhol and I’m not a huge fan of Picasso, but I respect their ability to express themselves in the medium and appreciate the value of it as art regardless of my personal experience. There are many artists that I just don’t get, but I don’t denounce them as artists regardless of their individual motivations or my personal taste. In EVERY art form there are true artists and posers, but each needs the other equally in order to advance art as a whole, otherwise how does art grow? Not everyone will be gifted or even good, but by putting limitations on something as elusive as the human condition and expression, especially in regards to a perceived “perfection” you can just as easily stifle those that could be great with non acceptance. Staunch restriction by traditionalism only inhibits growth, which will always be both good and bad in keeping with human nature. This is right that’s wrong, this is good, that’s bad all are, most times unfortunately, completely subjective. I believe this type of narrow scope limits not only the artist but the artistic community because it set’s limitations on something that should truly have none. I love art sometimes because it moves me, but also often because I see the spark of creation, and the smile of the creator, in every piece regardless if it is a “butter sculpture” or the Venus Demilo. The continuing art of Bellydance or any art form for that matter should not be another battlefield. The problem is that in a community that is "trying" to unify all people by providing a common outlet of acceptance based on personal expression that an inflexibility of attitude, appreciation and/or acceptance is what is truly "poisonous" (to use Loki’s term). I have seen the cattiness in the community though I have to say it is far more prevalent in the cabaret camp as it is full of soloists who are all competing against each other more often than they are collaborating. This has caused some awful rifts in a community that is so small to begin with. I find it unfortunate that there are divides that prevent me from experiencing many dancers expression of their art because they have “taken sides” in ridiculous rivalries. I try to go to most local events because I love all the dancers even those I don’t care for. I appreciate the art form for what it is not what I think it should be and especially not for what it was. Everyone grows as an artist throughout life and so art must grow in a similar fashion. Pushing negativity is a hindrance to that growth not a help, and history has proven that preaching at people will only attract those that are unable to think for themselves and repel those that can so the best way to reach people is by providing an example for them to follow not a set of rules and guidelines of absolutes. In other words, sorry Loki this is directed squarely at you, stop preaching and start supporting and educate by example not by argumentative persuasion. While I appreciate the passion and I think you make valid points, I don’t appreciate a self-righteous attitude and all the negativity being spewed out with such vehemence, I believe that it is ultimately counterproductive. The true artists will continue to be true artists and expand their art in whatever fashion they see fit and the posers will drop off but only time will tell who’s who. Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:31:33 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#fc86ddc7-5e8f-4a66-9f3a-cc69fa4f1531 Mr Oracle 2005-07-11T19:31:33Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#170a6f7c-2fef-4864-a36c-8d3f66f82cdd The Red Light Cafe shows are the best bellydance shows in town... There's such a great mix of different types of bellydance, and of the direction that the artists have taken with it. Zi'ah has done an awesome job with the events and I highly reccomend that everyone come to this show! Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:20:38 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#170a6f7c-2fef-4864-a36c-8d3f66f82cdd Oracle 2005-07-11T17:20:38Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#27fcfcba-7a8c-4f16-b4be-3f8ea75b31c1 ah, yes! I know Sarai! She's such a sweet, sweet woman... Alex, the guy in the wheelchair, was completely awesome! Oh man, I just had a big smile on my face the whole time!!! I LOVE seeing people express themselves, even through adversity... Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:08:54 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#27fcfcba-7a8c-4f16-b4be-3f8ea75b31c1 Oracle 2005-07-11T17:08:54Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#9c653205-8056-49cf-8252-96dd677000aa go to the Dance of the Fates tribe (danceofthefates.tribe.net) and check out the July Newsletter - it lists all the places we'll be performing! I'll make sure to post events that I post to tribe to this tribe also... if that makes sense. :) Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:04:39 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#9c653205-8056-49cf-8252-96dd677000aa Oracle 2005-07-11T17:04:39Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#14b24058-e2b0-4921-9d9d-15fe1489e6aa I am sorry you are trying to create a wall between Tribal and Cabaret, we are trying to heal this with the knowledge that it is all bellydance. Come to Red Light Cafe and see that Cabaret dancers are best friends with Tribal dancers. Anyone that has taken my class knows that you have to have a firm knowledge of basic bellydance tequinique before venturing into your own style...and that is what anything you invest yourself in should be...your own. Sorry, Loki, that not every single dancer on the face of the earth meets with your approval but the Atlanta dance community needs cohesiveness and not this pot stirring. It is sad to hear such anger and hurt coming out of you, I hope you come to Red Light and the dancers that night can make you smile with their joy. Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:03:18 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#14b24058-e2b0-4921-9d9d-15fe1489e6aa Ziah 2005-07-11T17:03:18Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#b26090b2-e00f-4f3f-a9f8-e1f08d06877c "come see me dance, you'll have a great time." Keep us posted, Lee. T'rest of ye, also: if your performing, post a thread about it and plug / crow! Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:13:44 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#b26090b2-e00f-4f3f-a9f8-e1f08d06877c Lokifreign 2005-07-11T16:13:44Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#0f1394d3-b377-4322-a78a-a91bddea1e3b "I thank your wife for such high praise! Did she perform as well? " She dances as Sarai; she performed there with Aviva's 'Mudra Dance' and presented several of her choreographs with the help of other dancers (Blake, Joshua, Aviva, and someother lady I can't remember at the moment); she performed one of them: an Indian prayer/devotion. Ironically, it's usually me telling her "you know, it doesn't *always* have to be 100% traditional..." Was that dude in the wheelchair not just ASTOUNDING or what? He made that whole thing, for me. Awwwwesome. Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:08:47 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#0f1394d3-b377-4322-a78a-a91bddea1e3b Lokifreign 2005-07-11T16:08:47Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#b36f8210-4fed-4778-9eac-a84de32f81b1 <<I guess I've hit the fabled "agree to disagree" mark.>> yes, let us bow to each other, and shake hands - I respect your opinion and have really enjoyed this thread. I look forward to meeting you in person. :) Oracle Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:02:54 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#b36f8210-4fed-4778-9eac-a84de32f81b1 Oracle 2005-07-11T15:02:54Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#9f3efe68-d944-45b2-b66a-d485fedc7fbc LOL. Its not 'just' ME culture...alot of it isnt. With us (my group) its more Flamenco based then anything. The arm & head gestures specifically so. Alot of ME bellydance doesnt allow bellies to be shown and the dance is far from what I have seen around here. Granted, there ARE several wonderful ME dancers but it is not the [primary foundation for Tribal. And its NOT about the clothes...thats just a small part of the whole. I have seen tons of dancers doing god only knows what, wearing Tribal attire. It only adds to the confusion. Tribal is about the moves..the fluidity, the enjoyment of dancing with your sisters/brothers doing something that you all love and understand. Its very kewl to travel across the US and be able to go to another Tribal class/troupe and be able to dance with them, for the first time, and few people would ever know that you'd never been there before. Thru first doing improvisation and then onto choreographed improv.. we have heightened not only our level as dancers, but as performers. Tribal busted out with the '3 ring' bellydance show!!You can be sensual..and not sexual. Or both. Its hard not to be enthusiastic about something you love and are addicted to. Always be true to the form and give credit where its due;> Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:43:01 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#9f3efe68-d944-45b2-b66a-d485fedc7fbc ~ISA'S 2005-07-11T14:43:01Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#03ad9f55-087e-4c8b-9dfd-58150a0c232c I guess I've hit the fabled "agree to disagree" mark. I only hope that some of what I'm preaching here will transmit and help change the bad parts. • don't front. • dance with whole being. • seek not mere 'belonging' through art - art *is* pain, know this. • remember and honor the struggles of those who've served pain before you. • 50yr-old egyptian mothers-of-nine outdance 99.9% of conceited americans by a factor of a zillion • the salimpours did *not* invent bellydance. suhaila don't even know how. • clothes are the least of it. • intaglio is intaglio - bellydance is bellydance. you can't have intaglio without etching - you can't have bellydance without sexuality. if the pretense to historicity and ME culture is dropped, I will stop bitching: promise! • do as thou wilt Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:28:46 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#03ad9f55-087e-4c8b-9dfd-58150a0c232c Lokifreign 2005-07-11T10:28:46Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#07181309-cae1-4cc1-a98a-ea08624e2f6b burbon makes me pretty plastic, too Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:49:30 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#07181309-cae1-4cc1-a98a-ea08624e2f6b Με||όώ 2005-07-08T21:49:30Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#6db8e6c4-f7ca-40f8-8a0d-4bc2ed8bfbb5 wood and metal are plastic Mediums. Fri, 08 Jul 2005 07:03:43 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#6db8e6c4-f7ca-40f8-8a0d-4bc2ed8bfbb5 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-08T07:03:43Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#046755ac-e3d3-4a20-bdae-111a38c259b3 awalim.tribe.net Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:06:31 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#046755ac-e3d3-4a20-bdae-111a38c259b3 Oracle 2005-07-07T22:06:31Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#19456252-a65f-4a7f-8471-e78c6f8ff6a9 actually; its COMEPLETELY ACURATE. Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:34:18 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#19456252-a65f-4a7f-8471-e78c6f8ff6a9 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-07T19:34:18Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#da3b6566-c73f-46c7-92f9-0b95a4e4bbb2 Can't we all just get along?! Loki, come see me dance, you'll have a great time. Egyptian style, studied under Egyptian greats when they were here in the States, play the zills like nobody's business AND drums, and wear real Eqyptian and Turkish costumes as well as cabaret costumes I make myself. But don't get me wrong, Tribal is awesome and I love it. If you want to see some local American Tribal style that is done right, go to Awalim's show at Nicola's Restaurant Monday, July 11. They all play zills, they dance with grace and beauty, and American Tribal is about dancing closely with your fellow dancers, in sync, with or without props, but usually with zills. Go see Zi'ah and the girls, you'll have a great time, I guarantee. They have a tribe on here somewhere, look for it. Lee Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:19:23 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#da3b6566-c73f-46c7-92f9-0b95a4e4bbb2 FlameGoddess Lee 2005-07-07T18:19:23Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#82dea2e7-d0d6-4f0b-821f-12bde6d2ce0b well the Tribal 'basics' are what we consider our building blocks. The main foundation being our posture, which is a mixture of ballet with a tad of Flamenco (for bravado lol). Diaphragms stay uplifted..without holding any breath..shoulders rolled softly back, chin up, hips slightly tucked. It seems the more people dance, the more they 'relax' their posture, thus collapsing the move. There are also various arm positions, movements that can be difficult at first to get use to. Snake arms look simple, but done slowly and correctly takes time. You have to go from shoulder to elbow pulling up and 'out' your wrist thru your fingers. Easy with the side you favor, not so much so with the other arm! I flapped my left arm out the car window while driving trying to get my left elbow to go down and pull back up. Its just ALOT of minute details. Normally using 3/4 timing..alot has been left to 8 counts..knowing what the 'down' beat is. Then we get into the vocabulary, which you have to know and is hard at times since alot of moves have different names in different formats. Maya's aka reverse Taxims...same thing. Every little move has a name and a specific way of doing it. I see dancers doing Floreo's all the time by just sloppily turning their hand in a circle, not realizing that it IS a specific move. What the goal is for Basics is to get that posture correct and us to dancing in it, learn the vocab and start learning the 'basic' cues for following an improvised lead. From there...well then we get into combos and layers whooohooo. Taking all your basic moves, cues and vocab and puttin' them into various combinations. Again, I am fusion..not an ATS teacher like Carolena, who's classes are far more rigid than I would personally care for. She has VERRRY specific placements for your head, hand, arm, body and feet in each and every move;> Maybe that wiggled the plank loose a little? Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:09:32 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#82dea2e7-d0d6-4f0b-821f-12bde6d2ce0b ~ISA'S 2005-07-07T18:09:32Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#eb80354a-b07c-42f1-8bb7-feeb067cd91d <<I was the tall guy that sat in the back and glowered peacefully until my turn came up and I played the chimes.>> ah, yes... I know who you are. That was very beautiful by the way!! I didn't get a chance to see it 'till I watched the video. the music was very soothing and relaxing... I thank your wife for such high praise! Did she perform as well? I definately see you as a traditionalist, especially when it comes to "Tribal" art. And in this case I say art, instead of dance, because there have been a lot of Tribal art, decoration, dance that has been adopted by society - and unfortunately without truly knowing what the significance is. I agree with Terra, that good art to me is defined by how much it moves me. If a butter sculpture moves me to tears, then damn - that's good art to me. But I also agree that Great art withstands time. your comment on the "prostitute" reminded me about a recent occurance in a troupe that I was formerly a member of. The director of said troupe wanted to do a particular dance. Well, on the outside it looked like a lot of fun, but the more research I did into it, the more it sounded like the women were just looking to make money. Maybe they weren't, but the impression I got was that they were prostitutes. I was appalled that so many people were doing this dance, even though they were pushing the idea that bellydancing isn't sexual... Needless to say, I didn't do it. This same director was always so concerned that we do what the arabs liked doing since they were the ones coming to our shows... but, actually there was maybe one or two arab people who came to our shows - the rest were americans. I just didn't understand the logic. I can understand wanted to show tradition, to teach an audience - but to say one group of people frequents our shows when they really don't is just insane. this website has a very good explanation about ATS, and tribal. It goes over it's structure, it's signature, and who the masters are... http://www.tribalbellydance.org/about.html I was the girl that was "banned from ballet class", so to speak. Although I was fascinated by tradition and wanted to learn as much as I could, going through the movement felt robotic, sterile. I added my own movements based off of the music that I hear in my soul. Bellydance is no different for me. I go to class, learn the movements, history, and so forth - but again, I feel sterile when actually going through the motions. So, I add to it based off what I feel. I blaze my own trail, never forgetting the history and the traditions I've learned, but only adding to it... hmmmm, my train of thought just isn't on the same track today... but there you go, my two cents. :) Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:27:12 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#eb80354a-b07c-42f1-8bb7-feeb067cd91d Oracle 2005-07-07T15:27:12Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#5d9a7c46-eec7-43be-b5fb-3b7648b72d39 <<So....if I get down on all fours and moo like a cow, is that art? >> oh my god, I sooooo needed a laugh out loud moment! Thank you so much for making my day a little brighter. :) Thu, 07 Jul 2005 14:57:33 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#5d9a7c46-eec7-43be-b5fb-3b7648b72d39 Oracle 2005-07-07T14:57:33Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3c5b7cb3-2676-47e6-b374-e3bc454079af Umm....yeah. You do realize in the talking of it, we all seem to be embracing different parts of this dictionary definition, which is very vague and not entirely accurate in places. In a "graphic or plastic medium?" Since it mentions sound, what happened to wood? Or metal? Not all instruments are graphic or plastic. I didnt see it as too off topic, since the discussion also embraced the concept of "My Art may be different from your Art." Its a legit question, so how do they define Art? Is the difference due to different personalized lexicons, or is it more concrete than that? Besides, how many more times can one person say they dont like an art form and another say its legit before they either start repeating themselves or just agree to disagree? Though I could start a new thread if need be, just to see who bites, I suppose. Herm. "Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature." So....if I get down on all fours and moo like a cow, is that art? Yes, I'm being a bit snarky. But still.... Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:47:41 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3c5b7cb3-2676-47e6-b374-e3bc454079af Kat 2005-07-07T11:47:41Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#5adbfd27-61ee-4c90-bc0c-21b7f2edd030 Just for clarity; here is EVERYONE's definition of art, as defined by the Dictionary: art   Pronunciation Key  (ärt) n. 1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature. 2. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium. 3. The study of these activities. 4. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group. 5. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value. 6. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature. 7. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts. 8. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building. 9. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer. 10. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art. 11. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates). 12. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks. 13. Artful contrivance; cunning. 14. Printing. Illustrative material. keep in mind that the dictionary lists definitions by most frequent context. ie: the first three definitions will aplly much more frequently than the last three. I think its important in a discussion like this to be very clear on terminology. We are using english to communicate these very distinct ideas and opinions and the only way to discuss such things on a level feild where everyone understands one another completely is to surrender to our language. In instances like this there can be no "my definition is different than yours"; especially where such an important word is concerned. no offense meant. just trying to keep this very interesting conversation from spiraling off track. Thu, 07 Jul 2005 06:03:33 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#5adbfd27-61ee-4c90-bc0c-21b7f2edd030 ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-07T06:03:33Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#2fb8a176-eabd-4edd-b4be-8112a821d63d "If I managed to earn the token, I'd wear it proudly and have no problem assimilating it into my belief-structure and wardrobe, because I understand that that would be totally acceptable in the cultural context of the people that so honored me." Damn, and all my harping on, and you manage to say what I was trying to in a sentence. "I'm not a 'purist' in the sense that Terra is talking about, I'm more of a synthesist - " *L* There is an unspoken addendum that while many people fit more in one catagory or another, no one but the people with the weakest personalities are ever confined there. I agree completely, Loki, you are a synthasist and more. I would only put you more towards traditional because I could never, for instance, see you doing hommage to a Campbell's soup can in sculpture, ya know? Your stuff has the meat of history in it. My definition of Art seems different from any mentioned thus far, unless I missed something. Art is ultimately, any creation that moves you, from a painting to a sculpture to a romantic gesture to nature itself. My definition of GOOD Art is anything that moves a large amount of people, and the BEST Art is what lasts the ages. This means butter sculpting is definitally out. In my opinion, it has always been the artists struggle to make a connection with the masses. From the writer plugging away at the keyboard to the composer creating a symphonic masterpiece, every one of them had something inside them, a thought or feeling that was screaming to get out. And, in the end, every effort seems to come down to "this is mine, how I think, how I feel, share it," and "Am I all alone out here, or do you feel the same way?" Its a communal coming together, a joining of--not to abuse the word--the human Tribe that has surpassed the attempts of religion, government, or even our very culture's attempts to isolate us and tear us apart. If an art form doesnt have this, if its simply pretty to look at, be it a dance, an okay book, a tepid landscape, or what have you, then all it is is art in the most generic form of the definition--that which technically falls under the definition of art. Hmmm...forgive, I havent the foggiest notion why I even went that direction. Maybe just to see what the reply would be. BTW LOki: One of the rules I learned about tribal was actually the arm movements were done to draw the eye ABOVE the waist, to draw you more towards the beauty of the dance and less to the sexuality of the dancers. That seems to be across the board, too, every Tribal dancer I have seen does it. Another is synchronicity, which is one of those things that only look simple, and I have to say, even most of the professional dancers I have seen botch. I'm still waiting to see someone do it so well you think all the dancers are one being, but that's the intent, far as I can tell. Two rules for ya there. Thu, 07 Jul 2005 04:57:07 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#2fb8a176-eabd-4edd-b4be-8112a821d63d Kat 2005-07-07T04:57:07Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3b74cc9e-9796-402e-8005-810161faae26 >>"..as yes it DOES have a strict format.."<< Could you explain it to me? I'm a quick study - you could just break it down to the essentials. I'd be grateful; it would be awesome to remove this plank from my eye. Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:17:40 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3b74cc9e-9796-402e-8005-810161faae26 Lokifreign 2005-07-06T21:17:40Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#fcea7180-a458-4b28-bb83-f22a0f6291df Heyeh, Oracle - we didn't meet per se, but at the Decatur Arts festival, I was the tall guy that sat in the back and glowered peacefully until my turn came up and I played the chimes. My wife told me she thought of you as a 'really good dancer' - which, in the parlance of us mere mortals, means you are up in the heights, attaining supernatural status, ready to start talking to the gods. Kudos! My wife doesn't praise people lightly or easily at *all*. My tastes are rarified, yes (damn Xehm that was some high praise over there meng), and I lean toward what I consider to be the finest of arts - the things that no one can do but that someone is miraculously able to do. To me, that is the definition of art: something not everyone is able to do. That's why a chef can be an artist, or a bricklayer, or a con-man. Elitist? Only if you really believe everyone is exactly the same. To a point, I can agree that *the appeal* of a given art is subjective - some may not be able to appreciate a short-order cook's artistry, but that's where I stop. Further, I have to break from that nugget of conventional wisdom, and assert that art actually *is* better than non-art, and *everyone&* is capable of non-art. To me, any other definition renders the concept of art unnecessary. Art is rare. >>"So, he bashes tribal and I cringe a little." Yeah, I'm bashing it, I won't deny it. The only mitigation I can offer here is that my opinion is based on what I've seen - maybe my luck was poor, but there came a point when I had to draw a line on 'tribal' and protect myself from further woe; it actually causes me physical pain to watch something that my heart tells me is a destructive trend. So what I'm really seeing coming forth in this discussion (definitely one of the good ones, imo, btw) is a conflict stemming from a combination of two conditions: use of terminology, and my personal exposure to the form (which I'm still kind of unclear about - what is it? What are its signatures? Is there a 'master' of it? Rules?). To me the term "tribal dance" evokes an image of a line of self-obsessed chicks aping easy moves in synch and being really conceited about it. That's the crushing majority of "tribal dance" I've been exposed to. Now, also, I'm biased: "tribal" is a very important word to me, and it's been totally abused ("tribe.net" is a perfect example; if all these nifty folks weren't signing on I'd be, like, 'fuck this bullshit and fuck these evil yuppies-in-disguise and their parasitic marketing campaign - the NOIVE of 'em~!") - not the least of the abuses have been perpetrated by dancers co-opting the term to indicate an imitation of someone *else's* tribal traditions... seeing people in bosnian costume, for instance, who have no concept of the incredible shame a bosnian woman would feel at seeing half of their costume used by women dancing for men in a secular/public setting, peeves me deeply, I can't deny it. I'm not a 'purist' in the sense that Terra is talking about, I'm more of a synthesist - - BUT I would never wear a rasta hat around and say "jah love" to people, because I'm not rastafari, and I do have an understanding of what the crown means to a rasta, and I won't weaken/insult it by assimilating it for merely fashionable reasons. I don't worship their god and so I don't pray to him. I wouldn't wear an apache warrior's hunting token - because I've never earned it. That sort of thing. If I managed to earn the token, I'd wear it proudly and have no problem assimilating it into my belief-structure and wardrobe, because I understand that that would be totally acceptable in the cultural context of the people that so honored me. I would never wear bosnian wedding costume because I'm not a virgin, I'm not dedicated to Jehovah (and I'm not a female-identity). Synthesis/incorporation of diverse elements is not inherently 'disrespectful' in my opinion, but there is definitely a matter of appropriateness to consider, and I think the tribal groups I've seen simply fail to put the time in to learn what is and isn't appropriate to assimilate. "Am I comfortable as a prostitute?" is a question I wonder if many AT dancers have asked themselves yet - especially since the aim of a group I saw wearing prostitute costume was described to be inherently anti-sexual/asexual (itself a source of confusion and head-scratching to me: non-sexual bellydance is like lo-fat lard). Bear with me: If not, wearing a prostitute's garb and using a prostitute's gestural communication is making a pretty strong but incongruent statement - I'm not sure it's something those dancers would feel very comfortable about if they knew what they were 'saying'. Imagine a non-english speaker walking around town saying, "pardon me, fuckface, is your mother quite ugly, or were you caught in a thresher as a child? thank you" with a big innocent smile. Imagine what people of another land are thinking if they see images of american women parading around in prostitute's costume and nonverbally saying "I am for sale - and I wish to distract your husband into adultery". If it can be avoided (especially in today's world of USA looking so shitty to the very countries our beloved bellydance and ME music sprang from), it should be. Beyond that, an understanding of the history of the dance itself would go a long way toward revealing and strengthening traditions - psychological and spiritual elements that *aren't* simply mindless superstitions. In art, especially folk/cultural art, the rudiments, fundaments, and underlying symbolic language of appearances and techniques exists because it is *emergent* from the human experience rather than artificial; i.e. certain things have emerged from the combined humanity of artists over centuries, been understood by later generations after a period of dedication and study, and transmitted to the present on a path of *experience* that is the natural underpinning of religion/magic/spirituality. So, to me, some attempts by AT dancers - all but one of the dancers/groups I've seen perform as such - to incorporate elements they haven't understood (or are actually just appropriating) are worse than lazy; they are destructive, misleading, (*sigh* here we go, he's getting pissed again) and poisonous, in the sense that this *one* little appropriation, say, a head dressing or a benedictory gesture, has robbed from the audience the chance to participate in what was once an unbroken river of experience flowing from the innately mystical communal experience that connects people of today with people of the distant past. Once broken, a thing is never again 'unbroken'. Not that I imagine there's any hope for the preservation of this mystical 'tribal' sanctity - I'm not superstitious nor foolishly unrealistic in my perception of the world - but I *do* think it sucks and shouldn't be encouraged. Dancers and *especially* choreographers should be proud, instead, to study the cultural/traditional holism of a dance - for a loooong time - before appropriating a thing from elsewhere that they might not otherwise be fully in sympathy with. But then again, who am I but a big oafish barbarian that doesn't really have a say in this shit, anyway. Rock out. You'll know what's going on if you hear me grumbling. Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:12:09 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#fcea7180-a458-4b28-bb83-f22a0f6291df Lokifreign 2005-07-06T21:12:09Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#1385f8a4-ee84-4f59-b7ac-4036e69a6a4b WOW! whew, deep breath..think. Okay, together now lol. I dont even know 'where' to start on this topic, so instead of replying piece by piece to what each and every person said, I will just toss in my two cents (maybe more later if i win the lotto today). ALOT of people misunderstand Tribal. They think if you arent 'any' other form of bellydance..well you must be Tribal. Or if you wear a certain type of costume...you're Tribal. It has become a catch all phrase unfortunately and we have tried various options to make it easier for people who arent into bellydance to differentiate what it is that makes Tribal what it is. If we break down each form of Tribal (like ATS, Fusion, Urban Tribal) and so on..it still doesnt mean crap to people who have never seen it and seems to only confuse more. If we dont seperate each variation (which could possibly go on for days) then people say "oh, I thought you did like what I saw Fat Chance do" or "i saw another Tribal troupe who did nothing like what this other one did". Of COURSE not. We are individual performers who combine, contort, comprimise and create what works for US. Back in 98 when I first started learning there was really 'only' ATS...Fat Chance type troupes/teachers around. As more dancers learned that style...as yes it DOES have a strict format..they started pulling in other styles of music, dance, and costuming ..starting their own troupes and then other styles and troupes followed. I originally started with Read My Hips..which at that time was pretty strictly ATS. Now looking at them they have even progressed. Its a progression for us as we learn new forms of performance. For me...I had always wanted to bellydance..but never fit into any of styles due to having to wear ridiculous outfits (again MY opinion), dance to music I didnt prefer and well, worse of all, COVER my tats!GASP! wasnt much, if any, room for artistic expression:< So Tribal came out when Carolena said enough of this crap. I am going to do it the way I want..and others followed. And there IS an underlying format to Tribal, whether people realize it or not. Our posturing, vocabulary, constant use of our arms/hands and doing improvised shows are a few of the things that people noticed about the dance. It seems all fluid, but honey you gotta work HARD to make it look easy:> Tribal dancers are constantly learning new dances to incorporate into their format and while one group may lean heavily towards Flamenco another may go more towards HipHop. I do a smattering of alot...flamenco, ballet, modern, hiphop, kathak, odissi/orissi, tunisian, turkish..and so on. Each little movement comes from another type of dance or performance. I dont, however, change the integrity of the move itself. For example, if I see a Tribe of indigenous(sp) people doing a dance, or even a troupe, and there was a specific move that I liked..I would use the move differently but keep the move itself the same. Dancers can very well get catty when you pick up a "signature" move or combo of theirs...like its never been done before...but I think its just the way you got about things. I try to respect everybodys opinion..or atleast be tolerant. I think its wonderful whenever any new type of performance comes around be it in dance, fire, art, music or what have you. Tribal dancers are just art in motion! Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:16:50 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#1385f8a4-ee84-4f59-b7ac-4036e69a6a4b ~ISA'S 2005-07-06T15:16:50Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#63306cc8-213d-4f92-8535-51926fd1553a yeah, Xehmo - I don't know Loki very well - just having met him on tribe recently. I'm sure you know more about his taste in art and culture and can speak for him in that regard. I guess, even though one person has high standards (which I respect, don't get me wrong) I still stand by my guns when I say art is subjective. There may be something he enjoys that I just wouldn't. Does that mean I'm wrong? no, it doesn't. It just means that I don't like what he likes. That's the beauty of having an open mind and understanding that it's all subjective. So, he bashes tribal and I cringe a little. Doesn't make me disrespect him. In fact, I applaud the forwardness of his statement and the fact that he backs up his reasons for not liking it. haha, I haven't written posts this long since I joined tribe and the deep discussions are very refreshing. I look forward to more of them with you all! Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:42:51 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#63306cc8-213d-4f92-8535-51926fd1553a Oracle 2005-07-06T14:42:51Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c9b0dc3f-8992-4400-9dce-7de780d263fa Its blowing my mind how much this discussion is reflecting the "purity of religious path" vs "eclecticism" in the pagan circles. There's always one person pounding it into your skull that if you dont follow the straight and narrow then you arent being respectful to the religion or anyone in it, while others are always talking about spirituality not being confined. And always, muddying the waters are the ego-chasers, the teenyboppers, the backstabbers, the wannabe's, and all the other people that no one group wants to own to being part of THEIR community, and always likes to point at in other communities as to why that community is flawed. What it really comes down to is that there are three types of people. The first type are traditionalists, most happy within some form of structure, and able to see the innate beauty in a well crafted object, be a sonnet, a cabinet, or even a religion. These people are a great asset in that they hold together structure and foundation, and build the steady basis for new things to come. The drawback is that they can get so caught up in that structure they forget how to see and/or accept the beauty of change, and fight it tooth and nail. The second type are path blazers, the schmucks who might sculpt butter or build a better **insert useless item here**, but who also often stumble over something wonderful in this crazy path of mistakes. They are the ones who first created the sonnet and made it beautiful, or produced the techniques that eventually became the codified rules that now define music and traditional paintings, or even religions. The up side is that they are constantly dancing on the edge of fire, burning away unecessary dross until only the purely useful remains, keeping art, religion, and society itself in a state of flux so it never stagnates into something bad. The downside is they will eschew rules even when they are beneficial, they tend to seem flakier than they often are, and are prone to tossing out the baby with the bathwater. The third kind are The Lost, and they are by far the most prominent, especially in this country. In a place we are taught fulfillment comes from what the almighty dollar buys, where community and even family is crumbling and becoming a shallow farce of what it once was, we have countless people in a search so desperate for something to hold onto, they'll try everything, and do so at speeds so breakneck they'd never even notice you had handed them a pearl until they'd already thrown it away and it was miles behind them. Worse, they've been raised in a culture where everything is shallow and ignored unless it comes in 15 second sound bytes, so it takes many of them YEARS to realize that to find meaning, you have to slow down and delve deep, and unfortunately many never learn. The downside to these people is they are the silly, the stupid, the shallow, the backstabbers and gossipers and egomongers we all so loathe, and the only upside ever seems to be the possibility they MIGHT grow out of it. No one wants to own to these people, but the fact is, they are everywhere, and until we stop being taught that freedom comes from popping a coke and sexuality from a body lotion, they will NEVER go away. Honestly, I think what we're seeing here is two different ways of looking at life clashing with the usual muddying of waters that always comes with The Lost. The fact is assholes are assholes, and saying that one person's assholes are worse than another's is just silly, they are all just as bad, and I think they outnumber us. My answer to this is always the same as my answer to the religious debate of tradition vs eclecticism. No one can say what the "best" way is, but it has been proven that religions that do not flex to continually meet the needs of its people will eventually preach themselves right out of existance. I think Art is the same way, as is government, politics, and everything else in life. You concentrate on the people who are true to their path, be it eclectic or traditional, and ignore the rest for The Lost they are, and hope eventually they will find their way. Preachy and philisophica, true, but it causes less ulcers. Just sayin... Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:48:44 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c9b0dc3f-8992-4400-9dce-7de780d263fa Kat 2005-07-06T03:48:44Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c1e511f5-6efe-473b-a3ea-484f6009a7fd I've wanted to stay out of this conversation, because I don't have the understanding of the tradtions that you guys do. however I would like to comment on one thing: " What's "good art" to you could be crap to someone else. It's all subjective." it is subjective. and you'd think... well, some of the things Loki likes must seem like crap to somebody... buuuuut...... I have to say this for him, because he wouldn't say this himself, and it really wouldn't mean anything coming from him anyway: Loki is a true conesieur and patron of the arts in addition to being one of the most talented people you'll ever meet. He has standards. and they are freakishly high. He induldges in some pop culture, yes, and you might find something awful in there (He's a Swarzenegger fan) but when it comes to the Arts, you won't find an example of anything bad within his tastes. He is exhaustivly immersed in what he loves; and his marrige has doubled his interest in Bellydance. the man has taste. that's what I'm saying. and his points are usually hard to argue against because...damn it if he isn't usually right. so I have to say that the usual " What's "good art" to you could be crap to someone else. " Doesn'y apply 100% here. Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:29:16 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c1e511f5-6efe-473b-a3ea-484f6009a7fd ZaeM the Great and Powerful 2005-07-06T03:29:16Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3e10230d-aee2-4d30-baa1-a41c8a64f2c2 I hear you and respect your opinion whole-heartedly. Art is all about interpretation and opinion. What's "good art" to you could be crap to someone else. It's all subjective. But, when you see it from someone's soul, then it touches you... <<I take this whole shebang really seriously - and I have this terrible sense that none of these conceited little 'tribal' bitches really do.>> I guess I cringe at this statement just because I've been accepted more in the Tribal community than the Traditional Cabaret community and that's where my heart is and my dedication lies. The Tribal girls were more accepting, nicer, and willing to do what they could for you. I've met more bitchy cabaret dancers than I'd like to admit - dancers that thought they were better than everyone else, above everyone else, and above the Dance itself. The girls of FatChance, Awalim, Devadasi, and my troupe never stop learning. We are always trying to find more information about history, customs, styles, and so forth to broaden our horizon. We never tire to learn technique, to drill form and so on... no form of dance is free from the conceited bitches. They're all out there. I see them more as sad little wannabees than anything... Wed, 06 Jul 2005 01:58:46 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3e10230d-aee2-4d30-baa1-a41c8a64f2c2 Oracle 2005-07-06T01:58:46Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c919a5d1-563c-454c-88f7-0b03895a5d1e Also, though, there's this: Creativity needn't be confined to the challenge of doing something entirely "new" (though Ecclesiastes deftly reveals the impossibility of that chimera - another conversation altogether). Think of the sonnet: it's a very strict form of poetry, with concrete rules that are difficult to adhere to properly (thus the absolute dearth of modern sonneteers, since "poetry" today seems to consist of belching out whatever string of emotionalized self-pitying crap on one's mind in any given moment AHEM! pardon me, I think I ate too much choco-coconut - depressed free-verse is leaking down my chin!). The rules of the sonnet are so complex that one has to study that shit for a while before it starts to make sense. However - inside the terms of a sonnet, a poet is *free* to say absolutely anything. Such with dance: a skilled dancer can dance entirely inside the boundaries of a constrictive form and still be incredibly original, highly expressive and emotionally engaging; in fact, I submit that this is the *only* way an artist can become truly great. That is the nature of sacrifice. Even very experimental art has to reach its zenith by succumbing to a set of limitations that it then seeks to expand through interpretation. I'm thinking of Sha Sha Higby's amazing dance, now: *very* experimental yet *completely* grounded in forms that she first *learned* - surrendered to, if you will - diligently and patiently. Surrender is necessary to great art. The audience surrenders to the artist - but first the artist surrenders to the art. I have yet to see the dance that moved me that was not grounded in the entire tradition of the dance. Free dance is, for me, fun to do, but incredibly lame to sit through. At the MDYL III show, we were privileged to have the participation of Petite Jamila - her act consisted of one move, repeated over and over. It was one of the most entrancing dances I've ever seen, and an excellent example of what I'm trying to get at, here: Constriction/restriction to the dictates of a form *elevates* an artist. Those unwilling to *surrender* to the wisdom / balance / tradition / of a form certainly won't master it, nor contribute to it, nor have a hope of rising above it, if such is the goal. I take this whole shebang really seriously - and I have this terrible sense that none of these conceited little 'tribal' bitches really do. Sorry if I'm seeming nasty, here, but there you have it. If I have to watch two thousand years of struggle and self-sacrifice go down the toilet so some suburb-dwelling chicks can get their pride on, I get to be nasty about it. It's why I dropped out of the "Bellydance" tribes - I just can't *stand* it. I've known and worked with a lot of the dancers in Atlanta, and only a *very* few of them take the dance *more* seriously than their own pride and will to self-importance. *No* dancer is even *equal* to The Dance, much less "above" it, its history, its requirements, its life and rhythm. Go and tell them for me, because I can't do it nicely, as you've seen on this thread. On the plus side, I'm glad that, at least, a lot of the great musicians are being supported by this craze, like Turku (RIP! sob!), Mogador, Musafir, and USA's own kickass super-good Raqui & the Cavemen (experimental, creative, 'fusing' and yet wholly respectful of the constraints and rules of the *form* of ME musics). Atlanta sports Fiore Affamato, which I will advertise should they ever decide to play out somewhere nearby. Thanks to youses participating on this thread. I knew it would be painful for some of you to read, but this is really important to me, unlike just about everything else in this crazy mixed-up world of human endeavor. Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:21:54 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c919a5d1-563c-454c-88f7-0b03895a5d1e Lokifreign 2005-07-06T00:21:54Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3e31b6ff-5bf6-4e8e-ad8b-0b391c1f045d "the preeners and self-promoters" That's really what I have the problem with. They suck and are stupid. It lowers the whole game that such craps are accorded any attention at all. People who sacrifice a life of ease to develop an art that requires nonstop discipline were already in danger of disappearing... now, as with "music, painting, poetry, writing", dance, too threatens to end up a haven for wastrels, lazybones, and exhibitionists whose agenda is merely to aggrandize themselves. It's a real tragedy. Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:30:23 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#3e31b6ff-5bf6-4e8e-ad8b-0b391c1f045d Lokifreign 2005-07-05T23:30:23Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#6de9d33d-20eb-49c3-94d8-ea421cb3d891 I gotta kinda agree with Oracle here, much of the Tribal Bellydance trailblazers like FatChance that I've watched do have real art to their dances. Part of it is just the ability to pay attention and transition together--its like synchronized swimming, no less an athletic event or art form for all it seems effortless. However, no matter how pretty synchronized swimmers are, you're right, if they are more worried about their PR than the art form itself, yapping more about their greatness and glamour than attending to becoming a better artist, then it ceases to be beautiful and simply becomes a mockery of itself. In Tribal, honestly, I also love the ability to mesh. It was based in the idea that girls who had learned jazz or ballet or other forms of dance saw a way to mesh some moves and went for it, fusing it into something new and somewhat daring, and they called it a new form because they were often ousted from all the preeners in the bellydance community for daring to be creative and play with their art instead of staying "traditional." I have also often heard in these parts women flocked to it because the preener ousted them for everything from being too tall to having tattoos. One girl was refused lessons because her hair was black, no shit. Its why I havent really gotten back in lessons again since your lovely lady taught me, other than a brief foray into Tribal, because I didnt want to deal with the prima-donnas and gossips, and no one had ever struck me as good as she was anyway. Still hasnt, really. But I agree, in this area the tribal dances are mostly the preeners and self-promoters, based mainly on the most simplistic of moves, only half an idea of what they're doing, and a lot of "look at me!!" There might be one or two decent practitioners, but they are up against the same shit your lady is, they are so busy doing it RIGHT they havent time to sift the gossip litter box to start force-feeding all the prima donnas the "tootsie rolls" from the sand. The allure of tribal for me is the ability to be creative. The allure of traditional is that its harder and ultimately more poetic. I think there's room for both, and that both are soiled by people more worried about their egos than art. Then again, so is music, painting, poetry, writing, and any form of socialization that involves over 2 people. :P Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:51:03 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#6de9d33d-20eb-49c3-94d8-ea421cb3d891 Kat 2005-07-05T21:51:03Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c3894cd4-ebcb-4d2d-a5cf-279f0fe63c27 ah, I think I see what you're saying now... I've studied both Cabaret (egyptian style) and American Tribal Style. I have branched off into "Tribal Fusion" which is a worse catch-all phrase than "Tribal". But, I don't know what else to call it. I use the Tribal moves, but experiment and fuse different styles of dance together - not just bellydance. Maybe I'm a "World Fusion Dancer"... who knows. It's really hard to classify any type of bellydancing, because unlike Ballet, there is no Institute to study at - no college to speak of. We learn it from dancers and in turn teach it to new students... So, bellydance itself is very nomadic - very druidic I guess. There have many, MANY discussions on other boards as to what is "Tribal"? I like to look at Carolena Nericcio from FCBD and use that as the basis of what I believe Tribal is: I believe Tribal dancing is a celebration of a Tribe, or Troupe, of performers. In it's truest sense, ATS is based off of Improvisation - the trust and understanding of each other to follow the moves tightly and with coordination. The movement is earthier, stronger, and more precise so that it's easily followed by other dancers. There is no "star" dancer, but the collaboration of a group of artists. The technique and costuming is based off of the nomadic people, tribal people, peasants, etc of the middle east and into India. As an artform that was adopted for stage it was also adapted to entertain an american audience as well... Modern Cabaret was also based off of the folkloric dances of the middle east, but it was glamorized to please the western tourists and military that were in the region. The movement is more airy, floaty, flirty, and in essence *girly*. It was really interesting - I took a workshop with Sahra Saeeda just recently (who was amazing by the way) and she talked about dancing for the famous choreographers in Egypt. Egypt was so proud of the fact that they had Ballet's and Operas. But they were very ashamed of their own dances, of their own culture. So choreographers like Mahmoud Reda, Farida Fahmy, etc fused the Ballet and western dances with their Folkloric dances to be presented on stage. And it was only then that Bellydance was accepted by the Egyptians. I found that extremely fascinating - because that's what I believe Cabaret is... Anyway, I just wanted to clarify what you meant and give my two sense as to what I believed the two were. There are sooooooooo many different styles within those two catagories. But on a broad scale - that's what it means to me. I think any true artist dedicates themselves to the art form of their choice and does go through some sort of sacrifice. It's the lazy fakers, as you call them, that are seduced by the easy road... boy bands for example. :) I believe you can find these lazy fakers in every single type of art form out there - in both cabaret and tribal, in sculpting, acting, singing... Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:07:48 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#c3894cd4-ebcb-4d2d-a5cf-279f0fe63c27 Oracle 2005-07-05T21:07:48Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#ba1557ad-a0b5-45f9-b2de-b55c9d003786 Saddled as I am with bias, I see Cabaret as far more valid a form than "tribal" which I *once* thought I understood, but discovered after a few years had morphed into a non-form, i.e. there is (imo) no unifying college of techniques ("college" in the academic sense rather than in the institutional sense). Cabaret might be classified as a college of aesthetic, in that it is intentionally entertaining as opposed to spiritual, traditional, or narrative. It's characterized in terms of costume and a succession of 'tricks' (like the sword on the thigh thing, or the candle-hands thing) (tricks, which, tellingly, I've never seen Suhaila pull off ~ but then, after sseing two of her movies I vowed to never again enrage myself needlessly with further demonstration). If you have a codification for the tribal form, I'd be grateful for an explanation; after half a lifetime of studying the arts, I've not yet encountered an example of "strictly tribal" dancing. It seems a buzz-word to blanket experimentation - which isn't bad at all in and of itself, only that I personally haven't seen anything *good* come out of it since 1993 when Natabari rocked it cold steady and were actually *tribal* - in terms of living, working, and striving together as a family. Seewhumsayin? Then again, I'm a mean man with very high artistic standards. I also hate "rock and roll" but things have come out of it that are awesome / I like. Maybe "tribal" will pinch out something I find valid someday... >>"What the Egyptians are dancing is a very Westernized version of modern bellydance."<< Depends on the venue, I think. A dancer on a TV show is going to wear "western" costume and basically shimmy for awhile with a sour expression or a plaster fake smile (ew~! ew! ew! ew!) while a 50 yr old woman at a wedding is just going to empty her closet and ROCK THE HOUSE non-stop for hours at a stretch. Really, though, any "bellydancing" is going to be western because the whole "belly" part comes from the excitement early 20th century westerners felt over "oriental muscle dancing". Watching a bedou family dance or a Moroccan trance-dance is educational on this point: there ain't a whole lot of "belly" goin' on. Perhaps this is the sbag between our varied interpretations of "Cabaret" vs. "Tribal". I see it like this: Cabaret has a look and a choreography that is somewhat standardized and a contextual venue that is well understood, whereas, at this time, Tribal has no apparent unifying theme / aesthetic / purpose, other than the snarky ones I mentioned in my above rant. My real thing is a deep love for the forms that potential contributors are not preserving, but are being seduced by the lure of "tribal" which requires no dedication, discipline, nor sacrifice. What is an art worth, that requires no sacrifice? Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:35:32 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#ba1557ad-a0b5-45f9-b2de-b55c9d003786 Lokifreign 2005-07-05T20:35:32Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#dea42af3-69e3-4936-a41a-46290c946cc7 <<"...am afraid of difficult techniques, and wish to avoid learning to play the zils">> Question: it sounds to me you may be mistaking Cabaret with Tribal. And before you get riled up, please hear me out... To me, FatChanceBellydance is Tribal - the are American Tribal Style bellydance and the truest anyone can come to ATS. The all play Zills while dancing and their technique is very awesome. Awalim is ATS and also a fusion of Tribal and Modern - they all play zills while performing, and again, their technique is great! So, when you mean tribal, who do you mean. Do you mean the ATS troupes? Do you mean cabaret dancers like Suhaila? I'm confused... And as for this statement: <<If you haven't watched any *modern* Egyptian performers, you have a *merely* fantasy-oriented view of the dance>> What the Egyptians are dancing is a very Westernized version of modern bellydance. If you want true egyptian dancing, then look toward the families dancing together at parties... because what's shown on stage has been altered by Western Society. Again, the American Tribal Style dancers know that what they're dancing is only a fusion of many, many different styles of dance, including american. Now, I do agree that there's too much bitchiness and catiness in the community itself - but just by watching a dancer, you can tell who's who. A good dancer will dance with his or her heart and soul... Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:02:04 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#dea42af3-69e3-4936-a41a-46290c946cc7 Oracle 2005-07-05T20:02:04Z http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#30ab6253-3413-4b85-bd28-988688d95d02 Quoth Terra: >>"while it seems every girl I speak to either is learning bellydance, has learned bellydance, or wants to learn bellydance, I can also vouch probably none of them would be able to tell the difference between Egyption, Tribal, or any other form."<< Word that. For my part, I've discovered that I *hate* "tribal". It seems to me to be THE catch-all excuse for suburbanytes to adopt imaginary "exotique", dress up like a pretty pretty princess and jump around while artlessly waving their hands. Argh! "Tribal" seems to really mean "I am afraid of difficult techniques, and wish to avoid learning to play the zils". Please. Forgive me if you identify as 'tribal' but actually worked to get some skills, and please note that *I have never seen you perform* if this is the case. "Tribal", as far as I can tell, means "nothing". There's no unifying form (other than the aforementioned dress-up and not knowing how to use zils), there's no actual *tribalism* (just a lot of petty backstabbing and queeny-pouting), and there's *zero* acknowledgment of the historical dichotomy between enforced sexual slavery and female spirituality the dance exemplifies. I now point an angry and cold finger at Suhala Salimpour. She, to me, is the epitome of all that I find execrable and awful about the state of american bellydance today. The bitch shimmies weakly and lazily for half an hour while tossing her hair up once per 15 seconds, 'counsels' her students on *MAKEUP* for crying out loud, and wears her pompous self-regard as ostentatiously as a crappy fake-'tribal'-costume while plastering glamour-shots of herself and trying to claim ownership of "the form" as if there was ever a college of "bellydance" (a totally american invention, people) and her mom founded it. Hah~! If you've never heard of Serena Wilson, you aren't doing your homework. If you haven't watched any *modern* Egyptian performers, you have a *merely* fantasy-oriented view of the dance, which, in itself, would not bother me - but for the pretentious adoption of hauteur and bitchiness that seems to attend all such pretenders. YoW! I wax angry on this topic because I *love* the dance and the dancers - somehow within the past five years it has all gone to hell and the actual lights of the dance world are usually timid creatures in person, unused to dealing with poop-marketing, backstabbing asshole-bitches, and sleaze because they've been *studying* and *working* all the while the not-ready-for-stripping fakers primped and spread rumors about each other. True artists have been buried under a deluge of utterly delusional conceited crap. Atlanta's scene is not yet as polluted as California's but I fear it's only a matter of scale. "Bellydance" died with the rise of the Salimpours - a pox on them! A pox on the lazy fakers! Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:40:26 GMT http://atlantadark.tribe.net/thread/93bb3620-1163-48a8-8ba3-a2879e308ef4#30ab6253-3413-4b85-bd28-988688d95d02 Lokifreign 2005-07-05T19:40:26Z